What percentage of blacks voted for Kerry in 2004 and Gore in 2000? According to Rodgers, it couldn't have been a lot because they're white guys. Also, Alan Keyes must've done reall well with them....

Tthat is not what is being said at all.  What is being said is that most blacks will vote for Obama because he is black.  It did not say that blacks vote ONLY for blacks.  You can't reverse the statement since that is nowhere near what was being said.  There was not a serious black candidate before now, so since a majority of blacks are Dems it makes sense that they voted for Kerry or Gore..  (And before you scream that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton are black, they didn't get the party's nomination.)

Please read my other statements in this thread so you can understand my point more clearly.

What is being said is that most blacks will vote for Obama because he is black.

Only because he is black? Then why has Alan Keyes done so poorly? Because he's a Republican. That little fact proves that issues do take precedence over getting a person of color electing. Your statement is a complete oversimplifcation of the situation.

Also, how well did Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton do among blacks during the primaries compared to Gore and Kerry?

Thank goodness millions of non-black voters are going to legitimize Obama's election.

Barack Obama has as much to do with O.J. Simpson as I do with Charles Manson.

Tommy, can you get a message to Squeaky from me?

You're white like charles manson?

Yep, racial brotherhood and all that....

I also wanted to address this stupid point of his: If you're a white person voting against Obama, you are a racist.

Um, no. You're racist if you vote against Obama because you think his ethnicity makes him unfit to be President (e.g.. less trustworthy, less intelligent, immoral). I doubt that most blacks who are voting for Obamain part because of his race do so because they believe blacks are inherently more capable to lead or have a prejudice against whites.

That's an excellent point to make. I've heard it enough now that it's almost crystal clear that it will become an excuse if McCain loses. It will be non stop discussion about racist blacks and non racist whites cowed to voting for Obama out of fear of being called a racist.

Maybe, but it will be a hollow argument at best considering nobody knows who you really vote for except yourself.  You can say one thing and vote another. 

If Obama wins there will be all sorts of spinmeisters analyzing why, but I think in the end it will come down to an extremely unpopular current president, and a tinkering economy, "it's the economy stupid"

No doubt, tommy. I'm thinking more along the lines of the right wing talking heads, of course. They will definitely be setting up strawmen.

I can only hope the republican leadership will have one of those behind the doors soul searching moments like they did in '92 when Bill Clinton won. (Not that I want that particular kind of answer, mind you!). Hopefully they will decide that pushing too far right coupled with negative campaigning will bring them a little farther back towards the rockefeller republicans. IMHO, of course...

I hope so too.  One of the reasons I support Obama.  If the Rovian/Bush/and now McCain wing of crap politics, to divide and target and slime just to win elections fails at the polls, maybe, just maybe, the next candidate will try a more noble and honorable way to wage a campaign.  That would be one sweet upside to a McCain defeat.

I would also like to see the Republican party taken back from the Troglodytes who have controlled it for the past 20 years or so.  However, if Grampy loses, Limbaugh and Hannity will claim that it's because the GOP wasn't conservative ENOUGH.

Nerzog, I know we are miles apart ideologically, but you know I respect your opinion.  Just to respond to what you said, I have no problem with the party going more conservative - because then the voters can absolutely decide on issues who they prefer.  It isn't the message, for me, but the slimy dirty politics that envelopes the message and turns it into a fair fight on ideology and policy, into a down in the mud slugfest over scaring people over gays and George Soros. 

If the Republican party sticks to debating issues honestly and with integrity, and they lose on those merits, so be it......the public has spoken.  But if they win because they frighten people, they don't deserve it at all.

"turns it into a fair fight"

Should be turns it from a fair fight......

I say it is impossible to separate the current right wing movement from the message. The Lee Atwater/Karl Rove style of political scorched earth campagning and governance and the foreign and domestic policy of neo-con movent go hand in hand. Iraq, Katrina, and the slimy message of "fear" all sit in  the same muck.

If they lose, they are going to have to do some serious soul searching and possibly realize that they were, gasp, WRONG about nearly every single thing they thought would win hearts and minds. Forced Democracy abroad, absurdly loose market restrictions, eliminating social policy, everything. And most of all, with winning elections, which in their view allows for every bit of political destruction they've attempted over the last 8 years.

Of course you can never know for certain why a large, diverse populaton will vote for candidate X or Y. There are countless reasons to vote for someone, some smart, some dumb, and some plain bizarre. Rodgers is a fool for attempting to read the minds of all black voters and baselessly accuse them of having some kind of monolithic, tribe-like mentality. But I think it's reasonable to make very general assumptions based on context and histroy.

For instance, I believe many blacks are very excited at the prospects of Obama being the first black (technically biracial) U.S. President. The same could go for any minority group that has been underrepresented in various fields. There's a sense of pride and inspiration that comes with it. It is also a good indicator that much progress has been made in America with regard to race relations. However, ideally that excitement should be weighed against the individual's stances on issues. Why vote for a black person if most of their views don't like up with yours? *cough*Alan Keyes* cough*Jesse Jackson*cough*

Now the above circumstances are unique to minority groups, and there is no real equivalence with white voters. Why would a white person be excited about there being a white candidate or consider that some sort of achievement?

I think you are pretty close to point on that. My suggestion is the pride happened last once it became obvious that Obama was going to win. It was never a sure thing, and if I'm not mistaken, Jesse Jackson ran twice and never had the kind of support Obama now enjoys. It's not a gaurantee that race alone drives every minority vote like ol rodgers suggests.

Here's a take from a black American, John McWhorter of the Manhattan Institute:

 -- So much for polls that had President Bush getting twice as many black votes as he did in 2000. In 2000 he got 8 percent of the black vote. This time, he got only 11 percent. Eighty-eight percent of the black vote went to John Kerry.

What's interesting is that no other racial group in America has a vote-skew anything like that. Latinos voted 53 percent for Mr. Kerry and 44 percent for Mr. Bush. Asians were 56 percent for Mr. Kerry and 44 percent for Mr. Bush...

Does our voting pattern really represent the diversity among us in experiences, aspirations, values? Do we really want to give in to allowing racism to define us?...if we vote as victims rather than as individuals -- we only perpetuate our victimhood. We become the Democrats' mascots, instead of a force to be grappled with.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_dmn-black_americans.htm

What about Jews.  They vote overwhelmingly for Democrats no matter what.  It really astounds me how silly my co-religionists are.

One point I have to disagree with you on.

Of course you can never know for certain why a large, diverse populaton will vote for candidate X or Y.

As a political scientist let me just say that is not 100% true. But saying that, the real problem is that to do actual (as opposed to things like CNN insti-polls) research and determine the reasons, you might be ready for the elections in 2012. And that is a big "might."

And also who says white people can't get excited about a white candidate? I'm always excited when the parties choose another old white guy. Maybe because I'm thinking to myself, "were do they find all these old white guys? Havn't they run out of them yet?" :)

As a black American himself, I wonder if John McWhorter has any special insight into the percent of black voters are so obsessed with racism that they feel obligated to support the Democrats, regardless of what war is going on, how the economy is doing, education, or abortion rights. 5%? 10%? 20%? Inquiring minds want to know.

 -- In 1984, Mr. Jackson received 77 percent of the black vote...In 1988...He got 92 percent of all ballots cast by blacks... -- NYTimes

These numbers are from the 1984/1988 primaries.

We all know that black voters overwhelmingly vote for the democrat candidate in the presidential general elections. But of some interest, or not, when given choices between democrat candidates...they vote overwhemingly for the black candidate.

We all know that black voters overwhelmingly vote for the democrat candidate in the presidential general elections. But of some interest, or not, when given choices between democrat candidates...they vote overwhemingly for the black candidate.

If that's true, why did Kerry get more support from black voters than Sharpton during the 2004 primary election (much morerecent than your 1984/1988 numbers)?

Not even Al Sharpton thought that his run for the Democratic Presidential nomination was about winning the White House. But Sharpton fell embarrassingly short of his more modest goal -- to become a major national player. His campaign fizzled with African Americans more intent on ousting George W. Bush than sending a message to the party Establishment. With black primary voters overwhelmingly supporting Senator John Kerry, Sharpton now has just 25 delegates, vs. 1,218 Jesse Jackson in 1988. "Black voters had a candidate, but it wasn't Sharpton," says David A. Bositis of the Joint Center for Political & Economic Studies in Washington.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_15/c3878065_mz013.htm

You just answered your own question...Sharpton's candicacy was a joke. He didn't have one chance in hell of winning anything...a fact that was not lost on the black community.

You can also forget about Carol Moseley Braun and Alan Keyes...two more joke attempts.

My question was in response to your statement: We all know that black voters overwhelmingly vote for the democrat candidate in the presidential general elections. But of some interest, or not, when given choices between democrat candidates...they vote overwhemingly for the black candidate.

The fact that most black voters supported Kerry rather than Sharpton during the 2004 primaries contradicts that statement. The fact that his candicacy was a joke is irrevelant since you made no such distinction to begin with.

There are plenty of others here that will be glad to engage you in a pedantic exercise...I'm not one of them.

Black voters are indeed monolithic supporters of democrats and viable black candidates. McWhorter said it very succinctly...no other racial demographics are as skewed as black voters.

The question is why?

Pedantic exercise? Spare me. Your first statement was a blanket generalization that when given choices between democrat candidates, black voters will choose the black candidate. When I gave an example which completely contradicted that claim, you shifted your argument to mean that they will only support viable black candidates. How the hell was I supposed to get that implication from your original statement?

And McWhorter is wrong. He baselessly asserts that the reason most blacks support Democrats is because they feel victimized and that race consumes everything, even other important issues. The fact that no other racial demographic is as skewed doesn't support that conclusion.

 -- The fact that no other racial demographic is as skewed doesn't support that conclusion. -- carn

Then what is the conclusion from the data that shows blacks voting in lockstep? It is what it is...even if you don't like it.

The evidence is clear...most black voters all vote for the same candidate. The question is why?

The data shows that the majority of black voters support the Democratic candidate, whether they are black or not. What it doesn't explain is why. Despite that, McWhorter and you claim that it proves that race is the reason. That may have been the case in the 60s, when LBJ received 94% of the black vote (still a record), but that was because of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Racial justice was the issue at the time and it was very legitimate reason.

But you're basically claiming that without really agreeing with or even understanding the broad principles of the Democratic Party, most blacks continue to blindly vote for them out of fear and paranoia of racism. So issues like the Iraq War, healthcare, education, crime, employment, and govt. social safety nets like welfare and SS don't really matter to most of them.

 -- The data shows that the majority of black voters support the Democratic candidate, whether they are black or not. What it doesn't explain is why -- carn

Now you're catching on...no other racial group votes in lockstep like the black voters...the question is why? Your long laundry list of issues doesn't add much because the bottom line always works out the same...they vote for the same candidate...time after time.

I'm not basically claiming anything...and I have no axe to grind. I've just posed the question why?

Now you're catching on...no other racial group votes in lockstep like the black voters...the question is why?

Um, I have never denied that point in this little argument of ours. I'm just in disagreement with the explanation offered for this trend.

I'm not basically claiming anything...and I have no axe to grind. I've just posed the question why?

How can you not be claiming anything? You cited McWhorter who had this to say: Do we really want to give in to allowing racism to define us?...if we vote as victims rather than as individuals -- we only perpetuate our victimhood.

You can't merely be posing a question when the above is his attempt to give the explanation for it. He believes most blacks vote for the Democratic candidate because they "vote as victims" and are consumed with race.

yawn....I've seen this play before and it's boring. It's ok that you don't have any explanation why black voters all end up voting for the same candidate...but I have no interest in following you down the rabbit hole of endless patter.

If you have some idea as to "why" blacks largely cast their ballots in lockstep I'd be interested in reading it...but I'm not interested in any more of your complaints about the opinion of others...you've already made them clear enough.

Fantastic response. So you do admit that you weren't merely posing a question and were giving an opinion in regards to the issue. Glad to hear that. Be more honest next time. I'm also glad to hear, that after replying to me 6 times, you're finally getting tired of this "endless patter" . Sorry that my plays bore you and that it takes you so long to figure out when to leave. =/

Yes, I do have my own explanation for why blacks vote overwhelming for the Democratic candidate. I think it has to do with them believing that govt. can be a positive good for people, rather than a necessary evil. This is the core principle of liberals\Democrats, and it seeps into domestic issues like education, healthcare, SS, wages, welfare, and other social safety nets. This mindset is the result of black people's general socioeconomic status in the country as a result of instutional racism and prejudice.

Of course social justice is also a signigicant issue, and it's the reason blacks first started voting in large numbers for Democrats. I just don't think it's still the end-all-be-all that you make it out to be. I'm also aware that there exists a subset of black voters who support Democrats because they think Republican only push racist policies or because they only care about getting a black person elected. There are countless reasons for voting for someone, and they're not all logical or reasonable.

That's about as good as I can do for now, since I'm getting sleepy. Unlike you my yawns are genuine. Goodnight.

Atta boy...and I bet that didn't hurt a bit. Thanks for getting to the point.

 -- How Hillary Clinton Botched The Black Vote -- salon.com

 -- Though a majority of black voters may inevitably have gone for Obama, nothing precluded the wife of the so-called first black president from keeping Obama's margins among blacks significantly narrower -- say, losing to him by 4-to-1 or even 3-to-1, rather than the devastating 9-to-1 margins by which Obama has often won African-American Democrats...

She failed to mount a strong enough challenge to Obama's claim on the African-American vote.--

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2008/05/05/clinton_blackvote/

It's very ironic, that Rodgers is using the racial paranoid rhetroic he accuses Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and many other liberal Black spokespeople. If a Black person opposes Mc Cain and the Republican Party it's because they are racist, anti- american unpatriotic and want to "kill whitey" for past personal racial slights, It can't be that 50 years of conservative Race-Baiting starting with Russell Kirk and William F. Buckley that has been codfied into the "Conservtive Movement" why should any sane Black Conservative person vote for the Republican Party and it's nominees for office. African- Americans are moral conservatives and the brothas in the barbershop, the sistas in the salons know the difference between a fascist and a Republican and many who represent conservtism in all it's forms would feel at home in National Socialist German Workers' Party,And that's what we see when we hear Limbaugh, Hannity, O'reilly and Rodgers.

The Republicans don't need African- Americans to win, but those days are coming to an end when Racial appeals to whiteness will gain them  any power because they have maximzed all the white ethnic and 'Regan Democrats  along with 'true" minority conservative votes they are ever going to get as a politcal party. The Buckley-Goldwater coalition is on it's last legs politcally and it died intellectually in 1980's when their intellectals ran out of ideas and their think tanks are scrapping the barrel of their scientitic racism (which was never a new idea) and their punishment policies has failed because those people that were thrown into jails have come out and have accelerated the crime rate. Just like the progressive liberal coalition that died in the 1990's they ran out of ideas in the 1970's, you have to govern from the center or you will be in the politcal wildreness. I hope you cons enjoy your last days in the sun because the GOP will be on the outside looking in.

On the Today show this morning there was an interesting exchange when talking about the O.J. ruling.

The female white host, Amy  said: "also there were no african Americans in the jury. And people are saying....."

Lester, the black host gave her a look like he was waiting for her to say something like "and Africian Americans would say not guilty because he's black." or something like that, so he could yell at her. The look he gave her was, just nasty.

Amy finished her thought: "...that this ruling is retaliation for the not guilty verdict in the Simpson murder trial."

AS A BLACK WOMEN OJ GOT WHAT HE DESERVED! ALL HE HAD TO DO WAS STAY OUT OF TROUBLE BUT HE DIDN'T AND THEY FINALLY GOT HIM. AS FOR RODGERS WAS THE MORMANS RACIST WHEN THEY WERE ALL VOTEING FOR THERE BOY RON?OBAMA SHOULD HAVE BEEN UP 55 POINTS OVER MCCAIN SINCE DAY ONE BUTSOME WHITES ARE THE ONES WHO ARE RACIST BECAUSE AFTER THE MESS THE REPUBLICANS HAVE PUT US IN FOR THE PAST 8 YEARS WITH MCCAIN HELP THIS RACE SHOULD NOT EVEN BE CLOSE. THE ONLY REASON OBAMA IS AHEAD OF MCCAIN NOW IS BECAUSE THOSE WHITE PEOPLE ARE SCARED ABOUT THERE MONEY AND JOBS.BUT ON ELECTION DAY MCCAIN IS STILL GOING TOO WIN BECAUSE THOSE SAME PEOPLE WHO ARE AFFRAID NOW WOULD RATHER SEE A WHITE MAN WHO PUT US IN THIS MESS BEFORE THEY SEE A BLACK MAN IN THAT WHITE HOUSE.  I WILL EAT A LOT OF CROW ELECTION NIGHT IF OBAMA WIN BUT I WON'T HAVE TOO BECAUSE MCCAIN IS GOING TOO WIN!!!! 

I can't wait, right-winger.

caps lock?

I know its still early in the day, but really no need to yell. And as someone who shares the name. if McCain wins I will give everyone on this site a puppy (that is, if there are not multiple vote "irregularities" (do you hear me Ohio and Florida? Play fair and you might get a puppy)).

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Is White American Shock Jocks Leading A Racist Campaign

I know it is coming. John McCain is down in the polls; we only have four weeks to go before we vote; will white American shock jocks sit idol and allow a Black candidate to become president?

For that matter, will white America period sit by and let a Black man become president?

A test is before the American people. Forget about the "Bradley effect." My liberal brethren must put up or shut up. It is time to step up to the plate and do what right for America. I will not give you a name to vote for, but I will say vote for who is right. Vote for who has your interest at heart. Vote for who will stop this terrible war. If you know it is the right thing to do, you must vote for it.

I am a proud liberal Democrat of color. I pride myself on fighting for the truth. It brightens my day to see the Party that is wrong put in its place. I love it when the bad guy comes up short of their misappropriations. It will never be said, I don't care because I do, and when I reach deep down into my soul, I find a peaceful optimism that one day this country will be truly set on a path of what is right for this world.

Joseph

Is White American Shock Jocks Leading A Racist Campaign

I know it is coming. John McCain is down in the polls; we only have four weeks to go before we vote; will white American shock jocks sit idol and allow a Black candidate to become president?

For that matter, will white America period sit by and let a Black man become president?

A test is before the American people. Forget about the "Bradley effect." My liberal brethren must put up or shut up. It is time to step up to the plate and do what right for America. I will not give you a name to vote for, but I will say vote for who is right. Vote for who has your interest at heart. Vote for who will stop this terrible war. If you know it is the right thing to do, you must vote for it.

I am a proud liberal Democrat of color. I pride myself on fighting for the truth. It brightens my day to see the Party that is wrong put in its place. I love it when the bad guy comes up short of their misappropriations. It will never be said, I don't care because I do, and when I reach deep down into my soul, I find a peaceful optimism that one day this country will be truly set on a path of what is right for this world.

Joseph