POW, POW, POW...

 

STFU already you doddering old cretin.

 

I need more beer.

Distributed by Cindy?

i tried not to look, kind of like a bad wreck on the highway...but...just...could not...turn...away...

I couldn't decide which one stirred more suicidal thoughts in my head - her, or Phil Graham.

I advise no one with a will to live to watch the two in succession.

Hope. Change. Bush. Cheney. Halliburton.

Your side is pretty boring too.

Read my lips...It doesn't matter whether it's Obama or McCain, some folks will  find their taxes raised. And even if you are not one of those directly taxed, rest assure those getting directly taxed will pass on that raise in taxes by raising their prices so we'll feel that tax one way or the other. Now say that fast 3 times ;-)

I'm sick of these empty promises coming from both sides. Why do we fall for this BS every 4 years.

Besides proposing to do something, whether it's cutting taxes or ending a war, doesn't mean it will ever become a reality.

This time around I think Obama has the best chance to at least uplift the mood of Americans. That ain't much, but it's something.

The only psychological effect of an Obama victory I'm sure about is that about half of the country will be purposefully and militantly pessimistic if it happens.  And vice-versa.  The one thing an Obama victory DOES guaranty is that the neocons will take a hit which might allow for a more truly conservative influx in the republican party.

And I hope that MMfA doesn't devote one column per McCain lie today, or they could end up with the longest home page on the history of all the internets.

And I hope that MMfA doesn't devote one column per McCain lie today, or they could end up with the longest home page on the history of all the internets.

It's a good thing Gramps McCain's nose doesn't get longer with each lie, like Pinnochio.  If it did, he'd have trouble getting into his freshly-repainted jet.

Or Glenn Beck's lies from yesterday.

I hate to derail the thread, but I think Glenn Beck's show was a new low point in the history of CNN.  It was entitled, Obama 101 and amounted to an hour-long smear of Obama.  Absolutely disgusting.

The Transcript

Peabrain,

That show was a thing of beauty! 

Obama should be proud of his roots, how his political thought was shaped and who has had influence on his life.  Why should he be afraid to stir the American people with a story of a leftist with a dream?  Why, like most leftists, are they afraid to stand up for who and why they are before voters make their selection?  Be honest. Be proud!

Proudcon, The next time I have to come in here and clean up your latest manure deposit, I'm cracking skulls...

You don't know anything about this person, quit bearing false witness.  If you want to know about him, read his autobiography, which he wrote himself (quite unusual for a politician.)

He has two autobiographies. I wonder how many he will have once he actually does something.

Obama has said he will raise taxes on people making $250,000 a year.  That's income, capital gains AND payroll taxes.

He will repeal the Bush tax cuts.  I guess he doesn't count this as raising taxes.  He says the poor and middle class will get to keep their Bush tax cuts.  (I thought they never got any tax custs from Bush??  In fact weren't their taxes raised??)

Not sure how anyone can say that Obama will not raise taxes.  It's pretty clearcut.  But  ever rely on a liberal to see the obvious.

And never rely on a conservative to do his homework.  The non-partisan Tax Policy Center shows your assertions to be completely false.  Unless you are making more than $227,000, your taxes will go down with Obama's plan:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/economy/candidates_taxproposals_tpc/

The issue -- MORON -- is whether Obama will RAISE TAXES.  Clearly he will and has said so repeatedly.

Also,  If the Bush tax cuts are repealed, that's about a $1,500 increase for me with the re-introduction of the marriage penalty and the cutting in half of the

On the Obama website I see these $1,000 "making work pay" credits and another $1,000 handout to help pay bills which supposedly comes from a windfall profit tax, but it never mentions what the income cut off is for those benefits.  It says "middle-class" but is that everyone under $250,000??  I don't think the ANGRY LEFT class warriors would approve of a family making $200,000 getting another $200,000.  Doesn't that go against their world view?? 

Seems like Obama is being purposely vague on this issue so it can be pulled off the table and/or adjusted to where you don't qualify unless you make relativley little money.

That should read:

"cutting in half of the child tax credit"

 

Child tax credit? You want people without kids to make up for you? Maybe you should wait until you can afford kids to have them.

Then you've just been enjoying a temporary tax vacation, which has been a major contributor to the US debt being owned by China.  Welcome back to the real world where the police, fire, and road services have to get paid for somehow.

Wow, thanks for the namecalling, NLT.  The plans are pretty clear and that was from a nonpartisan organization.  I guess you are for more of the borrow and spend era so that your children can pay off our debts, eh?

Moron fits based on your response.

Yeah...borrow and spend?  Such as the $500-$600 billion in new spending has proposed on that same web site.

Let's add that to the $59 TRILLION are on the hook for:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-05-28-federal-budget_N.htm

Social Security and Medicare lead the way. 

By the way.  The Brookings Institution and Urban Institute comprise the Tax Policy Center.  HARDLY nonpartisan.  Left-win the to the core.  Nice try

NLT,

Let me ask you something, which party has left larger deficits after its parties were in control of the presidency?  Also, if the Tax Policy Center isn't neutral enough, find me another analysis.

Yeah, and ask him how much debt Wasilla was in when the Moose-Eater blew town to become Gov.

Some 'reformer', huh?

Obama plans to raise taxes on households making more than $250,000 per year.
McCain says he plans to raise taxes.
A middle class citizen unfamiliar with the 2 candidate's policies listens to McCain's speech.
The citizen goes away thinking his taxes will be increased if Obama is elected.
End of story.

Once upon a time in this country the job of the media was to help keep the public informed. If you have issues with Obama's tax policy that's fine. But when McCain says Obama is going to raise taxes, do you think perhaps he's trying to deceive the people and that it is the responsibility of the media to explain what Obama's plans are?

tsk, tsk, tsk! Let's keep our rhetoric on topic and not use nasty words like "MORON" toward people who don't agree with us! Now, put out your hand and let us slap it with a ruler!

Oh, I forgot, you're a conservative who thinks things are going to change if you keep voting for the same old worn-out policies. You don't realize that the Republican Party is out for one thing only: maintain the status quo and keep their money in their pockets. To hell with the rest of America! "Country First" ?? That should read "ME First!"

I guess that gives you a right to call the rest of us names -- after all, you are the righteous and all-knowing. Look what your folks have done for this country the past eight years! Just wonderful!

when you start your debate with " Moron "  the rest of your writings become inconsequential.

we should all be polite in this arena.  Raising taxes, in neo-con-speak is rolling bact the idiotic bush tax cuts.  Personally, I don't care about taxes because the economy is so bad due to bush policies many people do not pay taxes anyway.  no employment = no taxes (and no healthcare).  We are now getting bank failures (10 this year) like the great depression.  The term moron may allude to the fact that most thinking people can not believe our "fellow americans" believe in neo-con policies that are bad for everyone.  We should be polite to each other.  Wait until we fool with Iran.. gas will really hit the roof and the drill drill drill set will let big oil get in on the result.  (The Saudis incrased production significantly for 2 months this summer and prices still went up, convincing me that we will not drill our way out of this).

The ANGRY LEFT eh? And you start off by calling someone a MORON?

Another hypocrite conservative. Just like Bush "I'm a Uniter".

 I guess he doesn't count this as raising taxes.

How about an analogy even you might be able to understand.  If your local Target has a sale that expires, are they in fact raising their prices?

But the reality is if tax cuts are repealed -- or allowed to expire -- it is a tax increase.

I'm sure the chardonnay and bris crowd can make the distinction, but the bitter clingers in Scranton and Youngstown won't be buying into that B.S. 

Noleft: "But the reality is if tax cuts are repealed -- or allowed to expire -- it is a tax increase.

I'm sure the chardonnay and bris crowd can make the distinction, but the bitter clingers in Scranton and Youngstown won't be buying into that B.S."

 

Uhhhh what does men who are circumcised have to do with Chardonnay?

 

Gray, I think it was a stealth Anti-Semitic comment.

Unless that was supposed to be the plural of BRIE, he/she certainly did.

The plural of brie would be bries not bris. It may be a simple spelling error but I wouldn't be surprised if bris was intended. Let me just say that I intend to avoid anyone wielding a sharp knife this weekend.

The reality is that George W Bush and a Republican controlled Congress wrote the tax cuts as temporary.  Because they did not make them permanent they are the ones responsible for them expiring.  They are the ones responsible for any increase in someone's taxes because the tax law does exactly what they wrote it to do.

The thing that NLT and others ignore is that not only will Obama be repealing the Bush tax cuts, but he will be implementing other tax restructuring plans.

NLT fails to grasp the fact that other things are happening besides just the repeal of the Bush tax cuts.

How is somethign "obvious" that's WRONG 98% of the time?!

"He'll raise taxes."  Apply this to 98% of the population of thh U.S.A. and the statement is flat out false.

Never rely on a Republican to use actual facts, or know how to count.

(And no, the poor & middle class did get some breadcrumbs thrown to them with the Bush tax cuts.  It's was the PERCENTAGE of overall taxes paid by them that increased.  Well, they'll keep their crumbs, and get half-a-slice of bread from Obama to boot.  (McCain only offer half a crust.)  Meanwhile the top 2% that got the MEAT last time round will take a hit.  Cry me a river.)

Actually, the percentage of taxes paid by the upper two brackets went up following the tax cuts.

That's because their total share of all income earned went up by an even higher rate.

In 2004, the top 1% earned about 19% of all income.  In 2006 that number was about 22.1%.  That means that their share of all income earned went up a little over 16%.

In 2004 the top 1% paid about 36.9% of all income taxes.  In 2006 that number was 39.9%.  That means their share of income taxes went up about 8%.

Their total share of income increased at twice the rate as their share of taxes.  So, just what was your point?  How sorry should we feel for them?

Man, conservatives remind me of Dennis the Menace's neighbor, Mr. Wilson: never have ANYTHING positive to say. Completely hateful, rude, crude and just thrive on being antisocial, un-American. Since spreading lies is their idea of fair play, we need to start throwing the sh*t around a little thicker. I'm tired of being honest and losing elections to scumbags like Rove, Bush, DeLay, Abramoff, Brownie, Scooter, Alberto Gonzales, Bob Ney, Craig Vitter and now McSame. I say let's play it their way just this one time and then fix this system that they're rigged for themselves. Can you say "Fairness Doctrine?"

So you make more than $250,0000 a year?

I'm tired of the "it won't make a difference" crowd. Probably the same people that thought it wouldn't make a difference if Gore or Bush got elected.

Wake the up

.It doesn't matter whether it's Obama or McCain, some folks will  find their taxes raised

Of course that's the truth, Jeter. I didn't think it needed to be explained any more simply (not to you, to others here), but it's pretty obvious what is implied by "will raise taxes" in a message delivered to America at large.It's true, and it's true for any president in history, I'd guess. You just don't hear the Dems chanting this deliberately misleading talking point against the Repubs.

McCain will raise taxes. That's true as well.Unless one is going to get into more detail about whose taxes and how much, it's a meathead trigger phrase, and means nothing.

"Read my lips...It doesn't matter whether it's Obama or McCain, some folks will find their taxes raised. And even if you are not one of those directly taxed, rest assure those getting directly taxed will pass on that raise in taxes by raising their prices so we'll feel that tax one way or the other. Now say that fast 3 times ;-)"

Yeah, but Liar McCain repeats his lies about Obama will raise taxes, in addition to his other lies that he won't, because he knows that the corporatist conservative Republican Party controlled news media is in his corner.

There is no way to get out of this huge national debt, or pay for the operation of the country, without raising taxes.  Anyone in this country who says and/or believes otherwse is a lying fool.

So, if you only raise taxes on those who make more than $250,000 you are not raising taxes??

I guess I should agree with Obama - let's tax the rich . . . which will not effect job growth because it is the poor who employ people and not the rich.

By the way, I suppose that Obama/Biden has a tax break for Independent Contractors and other small business owners, whose taxes look like they make a lot until their business and basic cost of living expenses are taken into account??

Don't forget that it is the middle class the buys the geegaws that those rich whiners make and sell, making those rich whiners even richer.

It is a symbiotic relationship, despite the Social Darwinist bullsh*t that you lap up from PigBoy Limbaugh every day.

Nerzog, we've been looking at this thing all wrong.

See, the rich just happen to start out with a bunch of money that somehow showed up out of thin air.  Feeling benevolent, they decide to hire people and give them some of this money for just doing stuff.  If you tax away some of the rich folks money, then they can't just give it to people to do stuff, and that creates unemployment.

You and I are still under the silly impression that the rich get that way by paying people to produce something which the pre-rich sell for more than it cost them to produce, and over a period of time, some of that profit makes them rich.  In our silly little fairy tale, the rich would employ as many people as possible to produce as much as is necessary to meet total demand and sell it all to become even richer.  And that's just ridiculous.

We are such fools for believing such farfetched nonsense.

So, if you only raise taxes on those who make more than $250,000 you are not raising taxes??

If the statement "Obama will raise your taxes" is WRONG 98% of the time, then why do need to ask such a ridiculous question?

By the way, I suppose that Obama/Biden has a tax break for Independent Contractors and other small business owners, whose taxes look like they make a lot until their business and basic cost of living expenses are taken into account??

This is one of the funniest things I've read here in a long time.  Do you not realize that business expenses are tax-deductible?  That means that independent contractors and small business owners DO NOT pay taxes on their business and operating costs.  In fact, many of them take advantage of that tax deduction, by including things that are not totally business-related expenses, such as company vehicles.

The funny part was when you mentioned 'basic living expenses'.  It looks like they make a lot, but not when you factor in their 'basic living expenses'!  I was wondering if you could tell me how those living expenses are different for small business owners and contractors vs. the rest of us 'ordinary' people?

"Media uncritically repeat McCain claim that Obama "will raise" taxes"

The reason the "Media uncritically repeat[s] McCain['s] claim that Obama "will raise" taxes" is because it's true. Duh.

I suppose the only REAL problem that MMFA has with this coverage is that it wasn’t made clear that Obama intends to only raise taxes on the rich. Hah!

McCain/Palin > Obama/Biden

So, was McCain only talking to the rich last night when he claimed Obama would raise taxes?

I'm sure only the rich could afford tickets ;)

 

Anyway, some of us called out on it (tax plan) last night following the speech.

i think you had to be rich AND connected to lay hands on one of those tix. i think they would have turned me away at the door. Oh, and this spotted in L.A. yesterday on some bumper: Jesus was white.

Actually it looked like all you needed was a $10 bill and a pink top in order to get in.  That seemed enough to bribe security people.

Hell, they were busing in the homeless to fill seats.  Saw a whole row of folks wearing orange jumpsuits, ankle-chained together.  Brought in the local Weightwatchers groups to fill two seats per person.  (anybody else see the "large" man as McSame was greeting people after his speech?)

Not quite as convincing as Obamas 80k crammed in Mile High.

I should qualify that last statement.

I meant 80k LITERATE people in Mile High.

They should have hired signmakers with more executive experience.

Lay off of them.  They show great "courge"

Yeah, cut them some slack.  They didn't go to Bob Jones University to learn spelling!

I concur. It takes LOTs of "courge" for these hypocritical sociopathic lying Republican faithful to appear on nationwide, no, WORLDWIDE television, while they are all displaying misspelled signs and making loudmouth fools of themselves!

The Dan Quayle Potato-e syndrome still lingers throughout the GOP. 

I thought it was kind of strange how the speakers kept using what professional wreslters call "cheap heat," that is, the easy to get crowd cresponse when they mention a particular city. 

Seeing those signs it now makes lots of sense.

Neon..speaking of prisoners in chains and orange suits that you mentioned in your convention humor, I don't think the GOP wants to be reminded of the sentencing that took place yesterday.

Washington Times: Disgraced lobbyist Jack Abramoff came to federal court Thursday to plead for mercy.

"I am not the same man who happily and arrogantly engaged in a lifestyle of political corruption and business corruption," Abramoff told Judge Ellen Segal Huvelle during a sentencing hearing in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia. "I've fallen into an abyss, your honor, I don't know quite how to get out."..

..[....]....

 Judge Huvelle sentenced Abramoff to four years in prison for defrauding clients and partners and corrupting public officials with expensive dinners, sporting tickets and campaign contributions.

...[...] ....

Judge Huvelle refused to give him credit for the two years he has already served in prison for an unrelated Florida case, which means he will not likely be released from prison until about 2012.

....[..]......

Defense attorney Abbe D. Lowell said Abramoff's cooperation has spanned thousands of hours and led to guilty pleas from 12 politicians and powerbrokers, including former Rep. Bob Ney, Ohio Republican. Mr. Lowell predicted his client's help will play a large role in future prosecutions and conviction

 BBC:    

[...]...So far, his testimony has helped convict 11 people, all connected with the Republican Party. Among them are President George W Bush's former Deputy Interior Secretary Steven Griles and former Congressman Bob Ney.

Mr DeLay is among those who have been drawn into the investigation, which is continuing. Abramoff's co-operation ensured prosecutors did not ask for the maximum 11-year sentence for his crimes.....[..]

The reason the "Media uncritically repeat[s] McCain['s] claim that Obama "will raise" taxes" is because it's true. Duh.

2% of the time = TRUE

I love it.  That must mean that minorities vote for Republicans.  Or that Republicans are pro-choice.  Or that they support Gay Marriage.  Or that gays vote Republican.  Or NFL Kickers miss exrta point attempts.

These ALL must be true, sine they are are true about the same 2% of the time.

He's some more comparisons:

McCain's Proposed Taxe Rate > Obama's Proposed Taxe Rate (for 98% of America.)

Palin's Religious Insanity > 98% of America's. 

Your daily use of actual facts < my daily consumption of cyanide

McCain/Palin > Obama/Biden

You seem to be a mathematician too.

How does McCain divided by Palin be greater than Obama divided by Biden?

KEATING FIVE! KEATING FIVE! KEATING FIVE! KEATING FIVE!

This cartoon reminded me of Grampy's story last night. After returning from a beatdown session, the guy in the next cell communicated with McCain using a series of taps on the wall that came off like a patriotic campaign speech. That's a helluva lot of tapping.

Speaking of the Grampypalooza, did anybody else find the 9/11 "tribute" a little exploitive and distasteful? Kind of like they didn't want us to forget to be afraid of the turrists.....

A nice obituary.

Okay, let's be honest, here. The elephant sitting in the bean dip, that Grampy Make-the-tax-cuts-permanent McSame won't address is the Iraq Mistake. Even if you believe that the "surge" was a brilliant strategery of Napoleonic proportions, we still have to pay for President Numbnut's little adventure.

Cutting taxes on rich people while we're pissing $250,000,000 a day into Iraqi desert was reckless and irresponsible.

How do all you Social Darwinists propose that we pay for W's boondoggle?

If is Iraq war is as Sarah Palin says "a task that is from God."

Shouldn't he get off his ass and pay for the damned thing?

Maybe we should pass the plate at all the Fundie Churches that are going to vote en masse for Grampy and the Troglodyte Queen.

The next president of the Unuted States is going to have to raise taxes to pay for the expenditures GW Bush put this nation in, along with the republican led Congress that voted with him along party lines for 6 years, for sure. I regard blocking legislation the same as voting with the president. If you believe McCain will not raise taxes and build all those nuclear plants , offshore drilling rigs, invent new energy efficient machines, and wind turbines ,then you are still living in a cave. I predict the next president will be a one term president for those reasons, tough decisions are going to have top be made economically.

You may be correct. If we're going to solve these problems, we're going to have to suck it up and pay for it. To fight all of Grampy's new wars, he either has to bring back the draft, or farm it all out to Blackwater, which will cost us a buttload.

Of course, those people salivating and shouting "Drill, baby drill" last night don't give a rat's ass about universal healthcare, education reform, alternative energy sources or global warming. They are Social Darwinists, and their creed is "F*** you, I've got mine."

Oh yeah, they will give a "rats-ass" if the drilling is taking place in their back yard.

But if it is my back yard, which of course, is no where near their million dollar homes, its ok. 

They gloss over the fact that oil is traded ( and priced ) in the world market, not in the United States market. the so called " our oil " will be placed in holding tanks mixwd in with crude from the world market. this ' drill, baby, drill " crowd is caught up in the moment and when saturday morning comes around reality will set in. Just as McCain glossed over the last 8 years pretending that saparates him from that period.

Wolf, I would love to see an elected offical take office with the pledge to do something about the fiscal mess and do something about it rather than having as their first act upon taking the oath being to start campaigning for re-election. We have to get elected officials that are more concerned about the future of the USA than theri own future.  One term them all, I say.

I quite watching ABC when Stud Muffin and Willie Wonka moderated the worst debate in this history of political media coverage.

Obama has in fact proposed ... raising them only on households earning more than $250,000 per year.

Literally - McCain was correct.

...and McCain has said that raising Social Security payroll taxes is not 'off the table'

So... McCain is leaving the door open to raise taxes as well!  Don't vote for McCain, he will raise your taxes!  He'll probably lie to you first, and tell you he's going to lower them, but once he's elected, raising taxes is not 'off the table'!!!!!

This is another good example of just how useless the American media has become...

They act now as stenographers for misinformation, having not the balls or competence to act as real journalists.  They are not out to challenge politicians or to help the American people make an informed choice.

They are more like infotainment sluts more interested in ratings than integrity.

It's an easy solve: promise to write and submit a Federal Budget to Congress, that is balanced and equal to projected and known revenues... simple, fixed, problem solved.

It's the easiet most simple and direct way to start toward a balanced Federal Budget: for one person to do the one and only thing they can in this matter.

There.

Now, would Congress ever pass the balanced Federal Budget submitted to them? Or would they instead load it up with their own spending measures and amendments, until it was so out of balance it practically tipped over?

And then whose fault would that be, that the promise was not kept, and the Federal Budget was not balanced?

How do all you Social Darwinists propose that we pay for W's boondoggle?

McCain promises to balance the budget, end deficit-spending and keep the Bush tax cuts while adding his own tax cuts.  He plans to do this by eliminating wasteful government spending. But as factcheck.org has reported, he still has yet to cite a single program he would cut or remove.

That's SO unlike him. I always thought it was Obama who spoke in generalities and avoided specifics with his policies...

The tax load has been steadily lightened on the rich and the middle class has had to make up the difference.  Because the rich have more power this has happened . Only if people are informed and organized can the less rich can obtain a more balanced tax burden.

is this anything like the radio ad by obama where an lpn tells us mccain will outlaw abortion (apparently without help)? Ive never elected an autocrat

FYI : By: Hilzoy

Bailout

From the NYT:

"Senior officials from the Bush administration and the Federal Reserve on Friday informed top executives of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the mortgage finance giants, that the government was preparing to seize the two companies and place them in a conservatorship, officials and company executives briefed on the discussions said.

 

The plan, effectively a government bailout, was outlined in separate meetings that the chief executives were summoned to attend on Friday at the office of the companies’ new regulator. The executives were told that, under the plan, they and their boards would be replaced, shareholders would be virtually wiped out, but the companies would be able to continue functioning with the government generally standing behind their debt, people briefed on the discussions said.

It is not possible to calculate the cost of any government bailout, but the huge potential liabilities of the companies could cost taxpayers tens of billions of dollars and make any rescue among the largest in the nation’s history."

 

Yikes.

I would like for someone to explain to me how raising taxes on the rich is going to help to create jobs and not hurt it.

It does neither, as I've already shown in a reply to Nerzog.  Go find it.  Learn it.  Live it.

It would make a difference if the American people knew that Obama would increase taxes on those making 250 thousand a year and increase corporate taxes. How do you get the corporate media to tell the whole story?

The corporatist conservative Republican Party controlled news media, take GOP-Disney-ABC for example, and the dis-likes of lying right wing Republican hate hags like Liar Diane Sawyer, and Sawyer IS a right wing Republican, want Liar McCain-Liar Palin to be elected.  That's why they repeating this outright blatant LIE by Liar McCain.

Palin also told blatant LIES in her lie and hate speech, and she's repeated those lies ever since.