I want to see Obama personally furious and openly display his anger at this offensive line of attacking that is coming his way, from the slimy likes of Dick Morris and the rightwing onslaught that he will face, far into the fall campaign.

This is where I see Obama's reticent nature and tentativeness as being a weakness.  I want to see some fist-pounding, calling them out by name, old fashioned blood boiling pissed-off anger for suggesting that he is somehow unAmerican, or some "sleeper agent".  It does appear, to his credit mostly, that he tries to rise above this stuff and gingerly answer it back, taking the high road so to speak. But these people live on the low road, and I sincerely hope that Barack Obama puts himself right in the middle of it and fights back hard,  hit them in the gut with this crap and expose it for what it is.

Otherwise, it could just beat him and beat the life out of him.  

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you're white.  Well, as an African-American, I can tell you the last thing Obama needs to go out and do is appear "angry."  He's already started doing what need be done.  He takes small, witty and effective jabs at Fox and members of the media who continually bring up his race, past pastor and religion as the biggest flaws in his character.  Politics of division.  Did you hear his speech the other night?  Just wait til he's able to focus his attention on McCain.  These conservative bobbleheads on TV are gonna dig their own graves because slowly but surely they will be forced to make more and more ignorant semi-racist statements in attempts to bring Obama down.  Unfortunately, the mood of this country seems to have changed.  I said it in a post months ago and I stand by my statement: Limbaugh, Savage, Hannity represent a dying breed of ignorance in America.  Still very prevalent, but dying.

Points noted, but this isn't about race for me, it's about one's patriotism being called into question for political motivation.  It needs to be confronted with a real, forceful and passionate demeanor - not unhinged anger, but with a calm and very pointed rebuttal.  And yes, wouldn't you be angry if someone called your patriotism into question?  I understand what you are saying on how it could be perceived, but to me it is the expected emotion in response to such a highly offensive personal attack.

A display of anger like you mention would be a refreshing drink of water for me too.  But, it would result in him getting a solid 45% of the vote this November.

I disagree, but since neither of us know for sure, we will just have to wait and see what happens.

Its not about race for you because youre a white man in a white racist country. You can blow your stack get caught drunk driving and be mediocre to moron and still get elected. Obama has to play chess, not checkers.

Even old Gramps can play pretty good political chess, I'm hoping Senator Obama can play 3d chess from memory, that should be enough to impress!

However, it is pretty good advice if you're a bored armchair pundit who's ok w/ McCain getting elected.

Obama is one of the best counterpunchers I've seen. I suspect that at the right time he'll give a rip-roaring speach that blows this garbage out of the water. Methinks the right wing underestimates Mr. Obama...and they'll pay for that.

"Obama is one of the best counterpunchers I've seen."

Disagree. I wish he was.

But when he's put on the defensive, he stammers, he slows down, he says 'ah' all the time-- he's not quick on the uptake-- which is the reason why he wouldn't debate Hillary in a real non-moderated "debate."

The Right's going to marginalize him as an outsider-- and it's going to work. This election is going to turn into a referendum on the 60's, on Vietnam, on race-- the works.

You guys honestly think the corporate media is going to allow a Democrat to get elected? A Black guy running against a supposed 'war hereo'?

Read your C. Wright Mills. 

This election is going to look like it was broadcast on TMZ. An Obama nomination is going to be a disaster, and it will take in-denial Democrats years to do a post-mortem on what happened. 

carlileb wrote:

>>An Obama nomination is going to be a disaster, and it will take in-denial Democrats years to do a post-mortem on what happened. 

Oh please! Another fanatical Hillary shill. Are you still standing by your prediction that Obama will lose by 15 to 20 points? That prediction alone shows your fanaticism has clouded your judgment.  

Carlisle is an agent of Operation Chaos posing as arabic Hillary supporter. He doesn't realize the race is over.

Operation chaos? I thought he was just so full of crap his breath smelled like a**.

I find it comforting that Limbaugh has utterly failed to rally his thugs to unseat Obama.

Maybe it's a sign of things to come?

Imagine Limbaugh becoming a drug addled, irrelevant, ego shattered, babbler of incoherent eliminationist rhetoric. It could happen.

which is the reason why he wouldn't debate Hillary in a real non-moderated "debate."

LOL 

When two more Democratic debates were announced this month, both Senators Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama quickly accepted the invitation to meet in Pennsylvania on April 16. But Mrs. Clinton, unlike Mr. Obama, has not yet agreed to participate in a North Carolina debate on April 19.

 

 

As a lukewarm Hillary supporter,
- carlileb5935 / Thursday May 8, 2008 3:52:42 PM EDT

LOL

lol now this white racist carlile billy boob is "lukewarm" for hillary. That is, after Barack thumped her good. He's gonna be lukewarm for Mcbush too after obama whips him. I'll take this "black guy" over his zombie-like "war hero" anytime. Notice how Boob refers to Obama as black guy but refers to McBush in non-racial terms. What a pathetic Karl Rove imitation.

Hillary has started the healing process, she has said she will work her tail off to put Obama in office should he be the nominee. That, in my opinion, has been her shining moment in this primary campaign.

Face the music. Hillary and her team have been a disappointment.

Also, you act as if Obama will be all by himself in the middle of the Republican s**t-storm this election season. That couldn't be further from the truth. He has a massive, organized, dedicated grassroots movement to get his back in the general.

I would like to see that too. Here is the problem. First it goes AGAINST his campaign rhetoric about getting past the old arguments and the old politics. One reason I didnt like that rhetoric too much. As you well know it isnt the way I handle things. Second there is still a whole lot of latent racist assumptions in this country. An angry black politician may not be seen in all areas in the same way an angry white politician is seen. In fact it may be the GOP strategy to goad him into EXACTLY that kind of response to use in their subtly racist Willie Horton type ads. I would HOPE such a tactic would backfire. I think today there is a good chance it would but maybe Obama is not so sure.

Quick question (and don't look up)...

Who does Dick Morris claim "has to go and celebrate American action on AIDS"?

Is it a.) McCain, b.) Obama, c.) Wright, or d.) Hagee?

e.) Who cares what Morris thinks? No one is sure <b>if</b> Morris thinks.

This is why Republicans are going to get crushed in November.  Dick Morris opens his piehole and thinks he's helping.

Agreed.  This garbage can't help McCain and Obama need not stoop to the level of explaining himself to this man or anyone else Morris claims to speak for.

They don't have to do anything. All they have to do is show pictures of Michelle Obama, and talk about what kind of 'first lady' she'd make, and their work is done.

I simply cannot believe the gullibility of so many Democrats. Obama's going to lose, miserably.

And guess who's going to get blamed?

That's right. Hillary! 

 

They don't have to do anything. All they have to do is show pictures of Michelle Obama, and talk about what kind of 'first lady' she'd make, and their work is done.

 

What the hell do you mean? 

Governor wrote:

>>What the hell do you mean? 

Good question. Just keep in mind that Carlileb is an angry Hillary shill.  

carlile billy bob is an agent of Operation Chaos

And he needs to brush his teeth.

It seems pretty clear to me, the thought of a Black woman as First Lady will make Republicans and Hillary Clinton supporters cring and they will have to vote for the old White guy. You guys don't get it now but Hillary and her supporters are just keeping it real. They know that the “regular hard working white people” won't accept a Black president, his Black wife and his Black kids in the White House. I wish they would stop this cryptic language and say what they mean, although Hilary Clinton almost did with this statement. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/08/clinton-obama-not-winning_n_100763.html  Anyway if Hilary and Carlile are correct about the degree of bigotry in this country that's pretty pathetic; and I can't help but assume that if a Hilary supporter who would vote for a candidate that has diametrically opposing political views from hers and not for the guy whose views are almost identical to hers are voting based on the color of the candidate's skin. That's pretty pathetic and if true it will expose these hypocrites once and for all.   

 

Good points as always, Lynn.

Tommy,

 I wish it wasn't so but I agree with Nerzog. I think the racial climate in America is better than it ever has been or Obama would have never gotten this far in LIFE ,BUT this campaign season has shown me there are still a whole lot of folks looking through a prism of race and some of those folks cover the news and some of those folks vote and a few of them have the surname of Clinton. Now I don't think the Clintons are bigots but they seem to believe that a WHOLE lot of White people are and they have desperately tried to capitalize on that and use it as an argument with the Super D’s to make them the nominees. Anyway as unfortunate as it is Obama has to be very conscience of playing into any stereotypes; but he in my opinion is fully capable of answering this non-sense forcefully without being accused of being overly angry; but he has to be careful. 

 

You say he is fully capable of answering forcefully without being accused of being angry. I am not so sure. I am sure he is fully capable of aswering forcefully without SEEMING angry but that doesnt mean it wont be spun that way regardless. I have seen an awful lot of times when the spin of a speech had very little to do with the speech itself.

You're right. The mischief of the press has no bounds. Look at the way they trashed MLK.

I don't think Obama is of the same caliber as MLK but I know he has that same ability to settle the dust. His calm but firm resolve will only make the thugs look ridiculous. Unlike Kerry, Obama does hit back. He just does it with an open hand.

.They don't have to do anything. All they have to do is show pictures of Michelle Obama, and talk about what kind of 'first lady' she'd make, and their work is done

As opposed to Bill?

Before I comment may I ask what do you mean?

They don't have to do anything. All they have to do is show pictures of Michelle Obama, and talk about what kind of 'first lady' she'd make, and their work is done

Carlileb says that Republicans will have an easy task of beating up on Obama by just showing pictures of Michelle Obama. He obviously forgot all the dirt the Republicans have on Bill and Hill. Hillary and Bill would be an easy, Republicans already have plenty of material and over the last 8 years I'm sure they'd just gathered more, keep in mine, truth does not matter to Republicans. Their goal is to place doubts in the mind of voters. Bill & Hill are much easier targets than Michelle.. 

Bruce,

I don't know any who take him seriously. He needed Hillary to win in order to be relevant. Once Obama wins the nomination, Morris will be bye bye.  

Someone should take Dick Morris, Ann "The Man" Coulter, Michael Savage, and Bill O'reilly and lock them away in a padded room together.

And throw away the key.

 

These are very important signals to Sen. Obama and his supporters.

With his win in the North Carolina Democratic Primary, we might say that we are seeing the ceremonial first pitch being thrown out in the campaign, by those who intend he shall never be the 44th President of the U.S.

He's a Muslim, he's unAmerican, he's some kind of "sleeper agent" or "Manchurian candidate"... if you read these MMFA pages, then you've heard it all before, just about everyday... but the ballgame has just now begun, this week, and the first pitch is a curveball, an unbelievable curveball...

Time for Sen. Obama and his supporters to get seriously to work, and hit this pitch.

I suggest humor, a healthy dose of it, for this particluar business of "he's a Muslim, or an agent etc."... because to respond to such idiocy seriously, lends a seriousness to it... but to make a joke about it (and Stephen Colbert is the perfect role model in these kinds of things) is a good idea, because there is just enough of the element of laughable ridiculousness to the whispering (of being a Muslim), as to take it with humor and make a joke of it, turning suspicion (however ignorant) into laughter.

 

Interesting take, hit it through humor, not a bad idea at all......in whichever tactic Obama uses, it is of course smart to hit it square on its head.....not shy away from it in any fashion.

And those that suggest he just ignore it, or not "stoop to their level" are of course misguided and naive.......just look at what damage the swiftboaters did to Kerry for proof of how effective being virtually non-responsive is.  For the attackers end up controlling the message, and that is just political suicide. 

If Obama attacks these charges too agressively, then he'll be typecast as an "angry black man."  This seems to be the current wingnut slime for his wife.

He's going to have to walk a fine line between ignoring the charges and responding too forcefully, but I am sure he can do it.  If I were him, I'd get some coaching from Donna Brazile.

Dick Morris has been stating as fact for the past 36 months that Clinton will be our next president. Is he flip-flopping?

I understand what you are saying, but I would welcome an angrier Obama at stuff like this.  This is questioning his patriotism, his core beliefs, that deserves to met head on with aggression and force, as far as I am concerned.

This isn't about policy or issue disagreement, this is about his character and a hideous and slimy attack on it......I would like to see him passionately fight against that. 

"This is questioning his patriotism, his core beliefs, that deserves to met head on with aggression and force, as far as I am concerned"

Well, Tommy, that's because you're a conservative. Folks on the right value anger as a means to control. Liberals believe in healing the wounds conservatives have carved into the body politic and the culture with their anger and eliminationist rhetoric of "Dems are traitors and unpatriotic."

You know I get mad. You know I get angry here but I'm realizing that everytime I get like that the conservative worldview is reinforced and you guys win another small victory.

So, no. Obama doesn't need to act like a rightwinger to render them mum. He needs to as he does; kill them with kindness.

You may reject this notion but civility and kindness are true strengths and forceful anger is a terrible weakness.

Continuing to run a hopeful and thus far successful campaign for the Presidency of the United States is the most American thing that he can do.  He need not stop what he's doing to tell this country's slime that he's American enough to do it.

I sincerely hope the Obama campaign is not as naive as you are.

But since you don't read my posts, you won't see this.....never mind. 

Sorry buddy, that makes me naive too.  Fact of the matter is, angry is not a good look for an African American running for prez.  Baracks fine.  Your opinion of him doesn't really matter, especially if you're voting republican.  We all know Baracks a better orator than McCain.  The only tactic these conservatives bobbleheads have is race.  I love it.  They claim he's the racist one, they claim he plays the race card, yet every opportunity they get their talking about race!  Americans aren't as naive as you take some of the posters here to be Tommy.  This election isn't about race or pastors or even shady real estate dealings.  This race is about a third term of Bush policies, a prolonging of a bogus war and a sagging economy who's dollar isn't worth more than the dollar in Ghana, Africa. 

August, You really have no idea about who I am supporting, do you?

No I don't.  I assumed from reading a lot of your other posts.  I shouldn't have jumped out there like that.  I apologize.  But again, this isn't about our personal opinions.  Barack is going to shove the BS they've fed Americans through propaganda news outlets so far up their arses they'll have flashbacks of Regan in office.  IF YA SMEEEELL WHAT BARACK IS COOKING!!

I smell what barack is cookin: victory!

August,

It has not been the Republicans who have played the race card. It's been the previously sacrosanct Clintons and Obama's own wife and Pastor.  

the NC Republican Party did...I had to see that ad night after night.

How quickly AA is willing to forget.

Willing to forget?

I'd say he's desperate to forget. 

Maybe it's the sign of effective propaganda that he is unable to remember?

I think the Obama Campaign and the DNC have to attack these lies aggressively. Gore and Kerry both made the mistake of trying to ignore this slime, and look how that turned out.

Obama himself may be able to stay above it to some degree, but the Democrats have to get out there in the media and forcefully denounce this bullsh*t for what it is.

Now you're talking.  This is the only way for Barack to attack.  To stay above the slime and let us, his supporters do the dirty work and call the media out on the bs they're pushing. 

So August, you cannot envision a scenario where Mr. and Mrs. Anyone in America are sitting around casually watching this campaign and trying to decide if it's McCain or Obama, and they are being hit with all sorts of these "sleeper agent" stories about Obama, seeping into the coverage - and they either see him being tentative in his response to it, or else they see his handlers or spokespeople out there denouncing it, But, wait, where is Obama?  Why isn't he out there fighting against it?  Wow, is he scared to take it on or something?, could there be a shred of truth in it?

Doubt is planted, independents or moderates move to McCain...... 

I see this as a very real possibility if Obama reacts the way you are suggesting. 

obama realizes that enough Americans have been sickened by these rovian tactics that this kind of bs actually turns voters off to obama's opponent -- all but the most uneducated ignorant voters who are one sheet away from being KKK anyway. Obama doesn't need the dittohead vote. Its a waste of time pursuing it or worrying about their belief in racial stereotypes.

Exactly.  I'm telling you, in his victory speech in NC the other night he took shots at Fox and a lot of conservatives like Limbaugh who are telling nasty lies and resorting to undemocratic tactics to keep Barack out of the big dance.  An angry Barack will play into the stereotypes and fears of so many Americans who whehter they admit it or not, view most black males as "thugs".  A witty and adult response is the only way to respond to juvenile attacks, not go tit for tat.

Agreed.  The idea that Obama needs to change his campaign message of hope and do some angry "I'm an American" dance for slime merchants like Morris is dead wronge.

Nerzog,

I don't really care what someone from Obama's campaign has to say in his defense, when one's patriotism is questioned, then the ire and direct response should come from the candidate's mouth himself.  It is a scurrilous accusation, and if this line of attack manifests itself into the narrative and becomes some rightwing talking point screaming loudly throughout this election, then Obama needs to get out in front of it, forcefully and to the point.

I don't care what Dick Morris says either, for that matter.......he is irrelevant, but if this seeps from people with a better reputation and slickly becomes a supposed winner for the Republicans, you will see how they get this out there, with a slyness that only their attack machine can muster, and then the radio hosts run with it.......before it gets there, Obama needs to fight back, and hard, in my opinion.

I think you're right, but I also think there is some merit in avoiding the "angry black man" stereotype. He has a fine line to walk here. He can't look wimpy, but if he gets too frothy about it, the Troglodytes will be running side by side clips of him ranting along with the Reverend Wright stuff.... with the caption "See? Told ya so."

The problem, as you indicate, is the insidious methods they will use to get it into the conventional wisdom. The viral e-mails are already out there, and slugs like Morris are throwing it out there in casual conversation. McCain will disavow it, of course, but the whisper campaign is going to take a lot of stomping to kill it.

The key is that Obama should not be shown holding a knife when he repudiates the remarks.  ;>)

True that!  By the way, don't ya love it when white men offer advice to a black man on how to be a American in an election year?

Yeah, if you view everything through a racial prism and pander to people by patting them on the head, then you are right.

Thankfully, that ain't me......is it you? 

 

O'REILLY: I do think it's a race -- a race thing.

Thank you for repeating that from O'Reilly........?

Well, the "angry black man" steretype is Reverand Wright, Obama has never, that I have ever seen, reacted anywhere near that fashion, he doesn't have that bitter anger dripping from his persona like Wright does.....so I am confident he can handle it quite well, and he should.

Tommy,I wish it wasn't so but I agree with Nerzog. I think the racial climate in America is better than it ever has been or Obama would have never gotten this far in LIFE ,BUT this campaign season has shown me there are still a whole lot of folks looking through a prism of race and some of those folks cover the news and some of those folks vote and a few of them have the surname of Clinton. Now I don't think the Clintons are bigots but they seem to believe that a WHOLE lot of White people are and they have desperately tried to capitalize on that and use it as an argument with the Super D’s to make them the nominees. Anyway as unfortunate as it is Obama has to be very conscience of playing into any stereotypes; but he in my opinion is fully capable of answering this non-sense forcefully without being accused of being overly angry; but he has to be careful. 

you mean Obama is NOT going to enslave the white race when he becomes President?Thats why I voted for him darn it.

Now that's funny.

Since Wright was a Marine, he is in a much better spot to talk about the Iwo Jima memorial and the sacrifice of Americans than the toe-sucker or O'Reilly. 

You're not supposed to notice that stuff. Just look for flag pins.

And listen for...

USA! USA! USA!...

Being a one term anti-war Senator from Illinois is one thing. Being President of the United States is another. A President represents to the world and to the country the people of the United States. However genuine and heartfelt it may have been Obama's public dismissal of the lapel pin in a time of war serves as a symbolic reminder to many that Obama put his anti-war agenda ahead of patriotism. 

In this instance being anti-war IS being patriotic.

Irony,

You are entitled to your opinion. However it is the symbolism of removing the lapel pin from one who wants to be President to which I am referring. 

You can see Obama's campaign trying to offset that symbolism by routinely lining up flags behind him when he speaks.  

I don't doubt Barack Obama's patriotism one bit. That's my opinion.

And symbols of patriotism are greatly overrated. That's my opinion, too.

 

But AA, all three of them do that, all of the time.

Do a google image search for "(candidates name) speech."   I guarantee the first page will have at least 3 photos of the candidate with flags behind them.

However, I could see how that could be the perception.  But people should realize that every candidate does it, and has done it, for the past 100 years.

 

DB,

I agree with you. In Obama's case, I do believe his reliance of multiple flags in the background started after Rev. Wright's video's hit the air. (Correct me if I am wrong.) I certainly started noticing it then. No doubt Obama used the symbolism of the flag to express his anti-war sentiment when he took off the pin and he's using the symbolism of the flags behind him to try and counter that anti-patriotic symbolism.  

 This is yet another example that Obama simply another run-of-the-mill politician who exploits the flag for his political gain. 

How much is Operation Chaos paying? You cant possibly be as obtuse as you appear.

So, basically you're telling us that Obama can only exhibit your conception of what patriotism is supposed to be. That's some pretty intolerant thinking, AA but whatevs.

Flag pins. Yes.

Multiple flags. No

Alright. Check.

I'm taking notes so if you have anymore suggestions for the Senator, I'll email them post-haste.

Round,

No I am not. He can do whatever he wants. I have said that repeatedly. I do not care.

I am just talking about how symbolic this particular act of Obama publicly removing his lapel pin turned out to be for a lot of people.  Nobody here wants to admit it but the flag is a symbol of patriotism and love of country for many here in the United States. Many, although not all, of those people reacted negatively toward Obama because of it.

 

 

Wishful thinking, AA.

I would bet my meager wages that fewer people gave a second thought to the flagpin flap than cared about the Wright situation. Something like 33% of voters disapproved of the Wright deal. It's a paltry act of desperation to keep pushing this patriotism angle.

Seriously, the right is out of bounds trying to define the contours of what it means to be a patriot but whatever. From New Orleans to Iraq to the recession, conservatives have sullied their credibility on what it means to love America.

Reasonable folks are far too concerned with kitchen table issues to worry about what some handful of ultraconservative hyperventilators have to say about Obama's patriotism or my patriotism for that matter. That's just the way it is. I'm really sorry for you that the right has lost its way but it's plain as day that you guys have no standing with mainstream Americans anymore on this issue.

Did you radical rightwingers really think you could keep calling your fellow Americans unpatriotic, terrorist sympathizers, defeatists and all that rot without seriously damaging your own soul when the vicious cycle came full circle? I'm guessing you all were too caught up doing whatever it took to win. I'm guessing you all just couldn't control your venal urges to savage anyone who didn't see things your way.



It's sad really. I feel sorry for conservatives. So many righties I know are just salt of the earth, caring people. You guys have been manipulated by some very powerful, very angry, very fearful self-centered authoritarians who have no interest in serving your interests.

I suggest that you take responsibility today, stop the cycle of hate and accept that not every great patriot fits the narrow minded rightwing defintion of patriotism.

I question the patriotism of someone like you AA.

Someone who has been questioning the patriotism of others for as long as I can remember.

I questioned the symbolism of taking off the pin to make a political point.  Whether lefties like it or not, Obama's pin removal was interpreted by many as slap against what the flag stands for. The ridicule by many here for Americans who think of the flag as a symbol of patriotic support shows what I believe to be the arrogance of the left.

I don't care one way or the other whether Obama wears a flag pin. It is the symbolism behind the taking it off that helps form an overall view of Obama along with his relationship to his pastor and Bill Ayers, the comments by his wife, and his unguarded comments regarding small town Midwesterners, plus other comments, and his limited voting record that show Obama to be too far left for many Americans. Feel free to disagree.

And thinking that whether you wear a lapel pin is a litmus test for patriotism is what I like to think of as endemic of the STUPIDITY of the right. He wore one then decided it represented lifting the symbolism over the substance. In your ARROGANCE you decided that his disagreeing with YOU about this issue makes him unpatriotic? That is beyond arrogance. You THINK you are the patriotism police but they dont exist. You would have been a fine aparatchik for Stalin turning in all those who didnt chant his name loud enough or spout the party line with enough enthusiasm. It is NEVER either you do what I want you to do or you are unpatriotic. It is ludicrous to attempt to frame it that way.

Solon,

Thanks again for the rant. Do you have it saved and simply cut and paste? If not, it would save you a lot of time for it seems that is all you post. :-)

I am not attempting to be the patriotic police. I am simply mentioning that Obama has used the removal of the lapel pin as a symbol for his anti-war views. That is fine. I don't care. Obama can do what he wants.  As much as many of you consider that very patriotic you discount completely that that symbolic act is seen by many as the exact opposite of patriotism.

You can name call and howl all you want about me or Republicans or anyone else you want over this issue. It is for naught. Your rants do not change the perception by many who have great respect for what the flags stands for regarding our government and our country.  To them, Obama's lapel pin removal was a symbolic insult to our country.

To me it is like removing one's wedding band after a few months of marriage and explaining to your spouse that your actions will show your commitment. It may very well be true, but it does put some doubt into the mind of the spouse. 

Had Obama not gone into such a labored explanation regarding his taking off the lapel pin, it never would have been an issue. But he did and the symbolism of removing that pin leaves those who believe the flag symbolizes patriotism, feel somewhat like a jilted spouse.

This whole flag pin thing is BS from the right.  The fact that you tie patriotism to the wearing of a flag pin proves that you really don't know what patriotism is.

AA,

I assume you think the same of McCain whose flag pin was absent during his interview with ABC George, right?

Frankly, if we are going to debate patriotism, should we examine the patriotism of a man who refuses to support the new GI Bill (still waiting for his alternative), or the man who only showed up for 4 of the 14 votes on the Iraq War, what about the guy who got slammed by the Disabled American Vets? 

If Americans are only symbolism based, we are in more trouble than I thought, or maybe not.  Maybe all the Dems have to do is show that picture of McCain hugging Bush because that represents that he loves him and his policies at a time when Bush has a terrible approval rating.

Fried,

I'm not debating patriotism and what defines it. I'm simply pointing out the symbolism Obama ignored by making a political point in removing the pin to a large number of people.

Whether we like it or not, symbols do carry meaning. The flag represents patriotism to many, although it appears not to many here. We all know how the flag is used to drape the coffins of deceased servicemen and the respect shown to it by honor guards and soldiers and many others. To simply ridicule, as many here are doing, people who feel that the flag does represent patriotism, shows what I believe to be a willful denial of the symbolism the flag and the flag lapel pin represent.  

AA,

Here's the problem, a symbol is only that.  Where was McCain's pin on ABC a few wks ago?  Guess he isn't patriotic.

symbols carry the meaning we give them. There is NO requirement that EVERYONE accept the meaning YOU demand is given them. No one here is denigrating or making fun of those who want to wear lapel pins only those STUPID enough to try to demand that it be seen as some litmus test for patriotism. The either you wear a lapel pin or the patriotism police will loudly question your patriotism. Those kind of stupid conformity junkies are the ones being made fun of and rightfully so.

 To Another American:

 If symbols are so important in the perception of one's patriotism why isn't that true for all the prominent politicians that have supported the displaying of the rebel flag despite its history of being the symbol of a group that fought a bloody war against the USA.Then it has long been a symbol used by hate groups like the KKK and Neo Nazis (along with a swastika)..Yet national politicians have come out forcefully in support(e.g. Mike Huckabee's what to do with the pole comment) and get no  real attack for the perception that its not supporting the American ideals...as symbolized by the stars and stripes...Way beyond double standards and hypocrisy!!!!I guess its a hard definition of patriotism we struggle with!!

Good point, smtdl.

So, what's up AA?

Anyone who thinks being patriotic is all about the sartorial accessories being worn are too simpleminded to be taken seriously. Lie to take us to war? Sure but look at my lapel pin. No bid contracts and crony capitalism? Yeah but look at my lapel pin. Moving your factory with good jobs AWAY from America so your lavish profit margin becomes an obscene profit margin at the expense of hard working Americans maybe but, but, but the lapel pin.

Its so sad that to you wingnuts its always about the sizzle and never about the steak. Who chants the name of the country loudest, of course that is the EASY thing, not who does what is necessary and takes a stand to assure our country is upholding the values we think of as American and if you think wearing lapel pins is the epitome of that then you are just sad. Its always about the appearance for you and never the reality. What is done isnt what is importan its do you pass the arbitrary nonsensical standards of the arrogant patriotism police. Since THEY are MORE American than anyone else and it is their CALLING to judge the patriotism of other Americans. Its arrogant and its dumb.

It really doesn't serve any purpose to denigrate those who feel the flag represents patriotism and love for our country. Just because you don't feel that way does not mean it is wrongheaded for others to feel the opposite.

STRAWMAN alert. I know the strawman argument is sacred to you wingnuts but could you perhaps cough up some instance where Obama denigrated flag lapel wearers? Oh you cant? Imagine my suprise. See that is more arrogance. NOT doing what you do or what you WANT him to do is NOT denigrating you. It is way beyond arrogance to say that Obama deciding NOT to wear a lapel pin is denigrating those who DO wear lapel pins. Its flat out stupid and desperate. He is not required to do what you want or else he is denigrating you. Get over yourself.

AAs flag pin really adds a splash of color to the sheet he's wearing.

"Obama's public dismissal of the lapel pin in a time of war serves as a symbolic reminder to many that Obama put his anti-war agenda ahead of patriotism."

By "many", are you referring to the dimwits who still believe that we found WMD in Iraq, or that we invaded Iraq to avenge 9-11, or that Saddam was involved in 9-11? If so, I fear that we'll have to run the country without them. They won't be missed.

AA's list of unpatriotic Americans who REFUSED to wear a lapel flag pin during time of war:

George Washington

Abraham Lincoln

Franklin D. Roosevelt

Ronald Reagan

et. al.

RTW,

I wasn't aware of it. Can you provide a source that proves you assertion that these President's refused to wear a flag lapel pin? Frankly I think you are being silly but I could be wrong. :-)  

Lapel pins are cheap accessories that have no historical significance whatsoever.

And I'm willing to bet that the flag pins being worn by the wingnuts were made in China.

"Obama put his anti-war agenda ahead of patriotism."

The classic, most perfect wingnut talking point: if you're opposed to the war in Iraq, you're unpatriotic. According to latest polls, that puts the percentage of patriotic Americans at less that 35%. 

AA:

The flag pin issue is a bogus one for real people outside of Planet Wingnut and the Limborg, IMO.

A lot of folks aren't impressed by people who wear a flag lapel pin while pooping all over everything the flag is supposed to stand for.. :)

However genuine and heartfelt it may have been Obama's public dismissal of the lapel pin in a time of war serves as a symbolic reminder to many that Obama put his anti-war agenda ahead of patriotism.

The folks ranting about the flag pin and patriotism are the very one who were to freaking lazy, scared or dumb to go out and put there lives on the line to serve the country they claim to love. Republicans and conservatives who have the nerve to define what patriotism is or is not for others NEVER served.

Sean Hannity: did not serve

Bill O'Reilly: did not serve

Michael Savage: did not serve

Joe Scarborough: did not serve

George Will: did not serve

Bill Bennett: did not serve

Britt Hume: did not serve

Pat Buchanan: did not serve

Bill Kristol: did not serve

Michael Medved: did not serve

By this list I'd sat NONE have the right to define patriotism for anyone!

"Conformity is the jailer of freedom and the enemy of growth". John F. Kennedy

Well Pearl, what did you expect from the same group who's solution to race relations was a "don't ask, don't tell" policy?

You know, I won't ask if you're black if you don't tell me you're black. ;)

Speaking of "Don't Ask Don't Tell", I saw a story yesterday that the Military brass is now ready to cut it loose. Amazing. Remember all the hand-wringing troglodytes who insisted that to do so would destroy the military? I guess they've realized that, when you risk getting blown up every day, somebody looking at your butt in the shower isn't so scary, after all.

Well Pearl, what did you expect

I know, I know.

Pearlene, I think you're being too hard on the white guys in their fifties and sixties.

There must have been some kind of affirmative action involved in the draft back then that favored giving all the good jobs in the military to minorities.

According to Tom DeLay ""so many minority youths had volunteered that there was literally no room for patriotic folks like myself".

King, what was I thinking. I should know, as must as those guys love their country they would have been the first to volunteer but those damn non-American loving minorities beat them to it. :->

It just goes to show who really loved their country. Some stayed home and were ready willing and able to hold off the Red Horde had they made it as far as California or New York.

And those damn non-American loving minorities and cowardly white men turned their tails and hid out in South East Asia until the whole thing blew over.

And those damn non-American loving minorities and cowardly white men turned their tails and hid out in South East Asia until the whole thing blew over.

King, the sad thing is this is NOT about race. It's about a group of cowards claiming to set the standard for patriotism, something they don't have a damn clue about. Men of all colors came when their country called. Some men enlisted and other's came when their draft number was called. They didn't choose an asinine excuses like I have a cyst on my fat a** or I'm a student and a new father, How many children never knew their fathers because their country called and their fathers answered. 

AA calling Rev. Wright anti-American makes my blood boil. NO ONE who served their country should EVER be labeled anti-American by someone who NEVER served himself. 

Now that ranted, I think I'll have a glass of wine. ;-)

Pearlene,

I do hope you enjoyed your glass of wine.

I respect the sacrifice Rev. Wright made by being in the armed services. He has my gratitude for that. I'm not referring to his military career but his pronouncements from the pulpit that we all have heard. You should know that.

Saying "GD-America" and "US of KKKA" are hardly pro-American utterances. Accusing the United States Government of genocide against blacks by creating and spreading AIDS is not pro-American. If you want to argue that they are, go right ahead.

Pearlene wrote:

"NO ONE who served their country should EVER be labeled anti-American by someone who NEVER served himself."

What about

Benedict Arnold?

Aaron Burr?

Jonathon Pollard?

Timothy McVeigh?

Terry Nichols?

Lee Harvey Oswalt?

Can only those who served label these men as anti-American?

I'm getting real sick of this BS that is thrown out regarding the "Goddamn America" quote. 

AA, I challenge you to provide the full paragraph that contained that quote and then explain to all of us how it is in any way unpatriotic.  Until then, shut the hell up about this stupid non-controversy invented by people who are merely intent on dragging a candidate down.  You are being disingenuous and your faux outrage is pathetic.

The flag pin "controversy" is almost identical.  I'm so sorry that nobody in the real world gives a damn about that issue.  The only people who care, or pretend to care, are those who want to damage Obama's reputation and the media who love to talk about things they don't need to think about.  Unfortunately for you, you're not going to get the average American to care about such a stupid, childish issue just because you keep bringing it up.  All it does is make you look silly.

Jaw,

Okay. Take a long deep breath. I am so sorry to offend you delicate sensitivities. :-)

I am not going to take your challenge to provide Rev. Wright's full "GD America quote". Not because I can't, and not because I don't actually know the quote but simply because it is up to you to prove your point to me and not the other way around. If you want to provide the full quote, be my guest. 

I have more than once explained why I think it is anti-American rather than your contention that I think it is unpatriotic. 

I suggest if you don't like what I post, please feel free to ignore it much the same as I do posts like yours that are full of venom and rant but really say nothing.  

Apparently there are others here who feel like commenting on the subject even if it so distasteful to you. Are you also going to try to bully them with cheap insults into conformance of your will? 

This is simply a discussion thread. I am only posting my views and responding to others who are doing the same. I am sorry you have such a hard time comprehending that simple fact.  Take another deep breath and move on my friend. 

I respect the sacrifice Rev. Wright made by being in the armed services. He has my gratitude for that. I'm not referring to his military career but his pronouncements from the pulpit that we all have heard. You should know that.

AA, yet you still can't just leave it at that. You continue to try to justify your calling him anti-American. YOU DO NOT have the right! It's just that simple. You can dislike many of the things Rev. Wright said but YOU CANNOT continue to call anti-American.

They may have enlisted and fought a war for America but where was that lapel pin. Apparantly THAT is what patriotism is all about.

Solon,

I am not sure why you are so eager to mis characterize my points. Earlier you Posted "Strawman Alert". I think that goes for just about every post you've made this thread. 

I have never said anyone has to accept the flag or the lapel pin as a sign of patriotism. I have no problem with Obama not wearing a pin. I have no problem with him standing in front of 20 American flags during a press conference like I saw recently.  He can do what he wants.

Why is it so difficult for you to acknowledge that to many, (not all,) the flag and by extension, the lapel pin, does represent patriotism and love of country?  

It is the act of publicly removing it by Obama because of his political stance that is what the controversy is all about. To many the flag and what is symbolizes should be above politics.  

If you feel differently, that is fine by me. Inventing "straw men" in order to sling your oft-repeated aspersions is getting pretty stale.

To many the flag and what is symbolizes should be above politics.  

LOL

AA, watch this, please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5LZI50dMbM

 

Enjoy your libation, Pearlene and have one for me.

I couldn't agree more. How did we get to this point, where love of country is defined not by service and action, but by words and ornaments?

I'd be the first to admit that service was not my choice or the choice of most of the people who answered their letters that read "greetings From The President of The United States". But when called, we did what was necessary.

For many of us, what we received for our sacrifice was to be called cowards and traitors by those who did not answer the call. All because we questioned our government.

I know who the real cowards are. They're the ones who today define patriotism for the rest of us. They're the ones who use their audiences to promote wars without end. They're the ones who worship flags and pins.

They're the ones who can excuse any and all acts of un-Americanism by todays leaders while at the same time crucify anyone who voices opinions contrary to the talking points of the NeoConservatives.

We've got o