I'd like to add something

THere is one more crucial problem with the media's treatment of this issue. By broadly using the term "swift boating", the media is, as you point out, equating what happened to John Kerry with what happened to Giuliani. The problem with this is that the media is giving two choices to the average viewer...either both groups are telling the truth or they are both lying.

If people believe both groups are telling the truth, then the media has ensured that the lies about John Kerry's military record continue. However, if people believe that both groups are lying, then they truth about Giuliani's record will get burried. Either way, by equating both cases and their continued insistance on not bothering to inform their viewers of the facts, the media is guaranteeing that their viewers mostly remain clueless and uninformed...and with a Republican spin on events. I say republican spin because John Kerry can't win in this situation. If people believe that swift boating is always true, then Kerry is a fraud. If people believe that swift boating is always a lie then Giuliani really is America's mayor and a hero while Kerry is still just "french" and a loser candidate.

This is just another example of the media showing false balance and refusing to do their journalistic duty of finding the truth behind these stories instead of mindlessly parroting what they hear.

Excellent article!

That's an excellent point. Depending on how the readers interpret the term "Swift Boating"......lying about a politician, or exposing the truth, they will judge both politicians by that term. How many will note that the temr "Swift Boating" shouldn't even be applied in this case, as is pointed out in the article?

To Swift-Boat Julie-Annie . . .

Would exceed the constraints of language. There is no lie so damning that equivalence could be claimed, much less established. We should, however, try damning that punk with the truth.

Looks as though

that is what the firefighters are trying to do, against formidable resistance from the Corporate Media.

Factantasy

The media has lost all ability for critical thinking and decision-making. If I was on a jury trial, I would be worried if there were msm member on the jury. I am sure quaint notions like Rules of Evidence would escape them. Would they even be able to discern the difference between evidence and a lawyer’s interpretation of evidence in the closing statements? I doubt it.

It is the Medias role to present the statements of government leaders and political organizations, but how about presenting established facts as well. When the Times report the firefighter’s claims are debatable or questionable, by not providing any information at all about what are established facts versus questionable facts, they show how dysfunctional they are. Actually, the msm should go even farther and detail for us as a constitutionally important service when political statements are not supported by established facts.

Kerry a coward? Established facts: Kerry had voluntary wartime service where he won medals in battle and received high praise from superiors. Un-established facts : Kerry is a coward because me and my friends who did not serve with him said so.

See it’s easy, but apparently lost to the msm.

Maybe the msm should come up with a new word: factantasy. It doesn’t differentiate between fact and fantasy, and since it is a big word makes some infantile writer feel important.

Simply put...

Attacks on individuals or groups can be fair or unfair.

Swift boating is an unfair attack, or at least that's the way I would think most folks would define it as.

Giuliani is being fairly attacked/exposed.

Therefore he's not being Swift boated.

Unfortunately the media, which latches onto these expressions eagerly, is using it incorrectly in this instance.

Just one more example of their growing laziness & incompetence.

more sinister than lazy or incompetence

these guys are not dumb, and i dont think this "oversight" happens out of laziness. they know what they are doing when they overlook the matters highlighted above.

i believe these events stem from intentional acts designed to deceive the viewer. the process is too coordinated for me to believe otherwise.

It's why Alberto Gonzoles still has his job. No Democratic president could preside over an ATTY GEN with such contemptable distrust, even among some GOPers. These guys know what they are doing.

Everybody does it

Yeah and they really want to preside over a "both sides are doing it" meme than do any objective thinking or exposing. Its easier and makes the brie go down better at the parties.

you're missing a significant point...

The media are for-profit corporations. Controversy is the main ingredient of a successful long story life. Added sensationalism is the only thing better.

Truth is now viewed as subject to interpretation (see Colbert's "truthiness"). A writer can always create a strawman as a foil or purport to balance two differing perspectives (some people feel this way...others feel this way...) to mislead the reader to consider am otherwise ridiculous argument. The fact that all reasonably minded people would agree/disagree is irrelevant since the straw man is a literary fiction the writer created as an easy target for his/her illogical or outlandish argument.

Swift Boating, etc., is instantly recognized as a sensational controversy and its accuracy is irrelevant when the point is to lengthen the story life. Remember that every governmental "scandal" has ended in "gate" since Watergate. Even Monica-gate. No connection to a hotel break-in necessary.

Right

Cannonball wrote: "Swift Boating, etc., is instantly recognized as a sensational controversy and its accuracy is irrelevant when the point is to lengthen the story life. "

---------------------------------------------

Exactly. Consider that they spent almost $27 million on media buys and a few hundred dollars on actual research...reimbursing one of their chatroom nutties who went down and looked through the archives and STILL got almost all his facts wrong.

Which of course tells us that the slow boaters intended not to find the "truth," but merely to perpetrate their opinions far and wide....and they solicited GOP money to do so.

PS

...and hiring a PI to call people and try to dig up dirt doesn't qualify as "research."

Not quite

'Remember that every governmental "scandal" has ended in "gate" since Watergate. Even Monica-gate. No connection to a hotel break-in necessary.'- Cannonball

None of these things ended in "gate" besides Watergate. The media just found it easier to add a "gate" on the end of these things as a flashing red light , telling the target audience to be interested.

It's been an easy way for our public opinion-shapers to create the impression that Travelgate or Monicagate was as important and controversial as the Watergate cover-up.

I was actually trying to think of a Republican minor scandal to throw in there, just to balance it out. Help me out, I know there has been a conservative connected with a 3rd string scandal to which "-gate" has been added, I'm just blanking out.

If its all about controversy

Explain why the media is so afraid to call Bush on his lies, or why they AVOIDED the Downing Street memo for an entire month during which it was the biggest story in Europe.

Jeter, I agree--

"Giuliani aides claim the first-responders are partisan and cannot be trusted to speak for their rank-and-file members"

His aides fail to realize that although SOME of the first responders may be partisan, what they are saying is still true!

The difference is

If I understand it correctly, (please correct me if I am wrong,) Guiliani is being attacked by members of union which also has a history of being supportive of the Democratic Party.

It looks like to me, (a casual observer,) that this is another typical political ploy by the Democratic Party to tarnish a front runner for the GOP. The motives of the union seem readily apparent. What they say may be true, (I haven't looked in a while to see what those criticisms are, but if I remember correctly, they are criticizing the radio's used by the police and firefighters on 911 and the emergency HQ location in the WTC). But because it is coming from a union, it looks to me to be patently partisan.

Not to refight the last presidential campaign, but I don't think the firefighters union will have anywhere near the impact of the SBVTs and POWs who came out against Kerry.

2004

Although the National Firefighters Union endorsed Senator Kerry, the New york firefighters Union endorsed Bush in 2004

Guilani relationship w/ FF union

“If I understand it correctly, (please correct me if I am wrong,) Guiliani is being attacked by members of union which also has a history of being supportive of the Democratic Party.”

The firefighters union of New York is pretty conservative and they support a lot of conservative candidates. I know they supported Giuliani’s reelection and I’m pretty sure they endorsed him the first time he ran. The relationship soured after 9/11 and contract disputes.

Hey, Barney !

"I don't think the firefighters union will have anywhere near the impact of the SBVTs and POWs who came out against Kerry."

You're probably right. Without the right wing corporate media carrying them, and considering they're telling the truth, they've got a much harder battle than the GOP puppet Swift Boaters.

I'll overlook your partisan prejudices against Union Members for that bit of insight on your part, Dep. Fife.

Kerry was a Swift Boat Vet, but Giuliani...

Newsweek, Time, MSNBC, the New York Daily News, and scores more all agreed that the firefighters were just like the Vietnam veterans who targeted the military service of Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) during the 2004 presidential run.

I see one major difference:

The Swift Boat Vets for Truth targeted one of their own, a fellow Swift Boat Vet, something that is rather unusual. We generally see groups supporting their own members.

I do not believe Giuliani ever was a firefighter, and he certainly was not employed as one on 9/11. So in the attacks by them, they are not attacking one of their own, but instead the administrator in charge at the time of the events. This is quite common, dog bites man.

Yes, Kerry was a Swift Boat Vet, But . . . . .

"The Swift Boat Vets for Truth targeted one of their own, a fellow Swift Boat Vet, something that is rather unusual. We generally see groups supporting their own members. "

The Swift Boat Veterans for "truth" was formed for the express purpose of smearing Kerry. It was spearheaded by just a few people.

Most who belonged to the organization never even saw Kerry in Vietnam, much less served with him.

They were but a small percentage of the total number of guys who served with/on Swift Boats, as only about 255 of a potential 2,500-3,000 joined.

The Swift Boat Sailors Association (I'm not sure I have the name correct) expressly refused to endorse anyone in that election.

It is quite possible that a member of the SBV"t" will show up here for a typical soundbite. I would invite them to stick around for something beyond a soundbite -- you know, like a discussion.

If they do, it will be the first time

Doug Reese

Side issues

Like I said, Giuliani is an administrator, not a firefighter.

Why they were formed, how many members, etc. does not counter the fact that JK was successfully challenged by a group of people of his same background and expertise, not applicable in the firefighter/Giuliani situation.

Administrator?

Next you'll be telling us St. Rudy wasn't the hero of 9/11 and wasn't America's mayor.

"Successfully" ?

I'd say SBVT was "successful" only in managing to get its lies on the air in 50 states. Not in making any substantiated claims.

How is lying a succesful challenge?

"Why they were formed, how many members, etc. does not counter the fact that JK was successfully challenged by a group of people of his same background and expertise, not applicable in the firefighter/Giuliani situation."

How does spreading lies about someone become a "successful challenge?" You know, when the truth is not a factor, many more arguments are on the table.

yur argument show nothing

The swift boater were republican and therefore Kerry was not one of their own. The Jewl is a a New YOrker and so are the firefighters therefore he is one of their own. I am from Missouri too and your arguments shows me nothing but the manipulation of categories.

Oh...so "Swift Boating" is BAD now?

Yep, now that it's a Republican whose ox is being gored, the media can call "Swift-Boating" what it is- smearing. They'll conveniently forget that the media fed the Swift-Boaters of 2004, gave them credibility by inviting them back again and again, and when confronted with the truth, told us "reasonable people can disagree."

The problem is, what the firefighters are doing ISNT "SWIFT BOATING." Telling the TRUTH and providing EVIDENCE is not "Swift Boating." But the media is so in the pocket of the Corporatist Right, you can bet that ANY attack on ANY Republican will be given the "Swift Boat" moniker.

Gulliani trying to capitalize on 9/11 until the facts get in the way

From the link above: “This image of Rudy Giuliani as 'America's Mayor' is a myth,” says President of Uniformed Firefighters Union, Steve Cassidy in the DVD.

The video raises many questions about the former mayor, including why firefighters used obsolete radios on September 11th that may have added to the death toll, why the search for human remains was suddenly stopped after a lost shipment of bank gold was recovered and why the emergency management bunker was on the edge of ground zero.

The firefighters say they want America to hear and see their take on the former mayor

“When America knows the decisions he made pre 9-11 and then on 9-11, I don’t think they'll ever support him for president,” Cassidy adds.

This is so much different than the Rove-manufactured lies about Kerry and his Vietnam service. The press should be ashamed. (And I'm also tired of them attaching a -gate to every scandal too!)

Factually questionable??

The article really says the ad is factually questionable. No detail and no specifics and does NOT really say the facts are wrong. Discredit as much as possible without really risking anything rebuttable.

A new use for swift boating

I hadn't thought of this use of the term. A broading further could say any criticism is swift boating. Why not, a futher item of confusion. How exactly is comphrension here different from climbing a greased flagpole.

Thank you Mr.Boehlert. I may not enjoy the information, but I'm glad to have it.

Cardboard Swiftboats

"...note that MSNBC failed to point out the most glaring and obvious Swift Boat trait; that the Vets peddled lies. This has become something of a cardinal rule for journalists when referencing the group today: Do not spell out the fact that the Swift Boat Vets were lying."

It's a cardinal rule for journalists and media entities (et tu MSNBC?) who, unlike Boehlert, wish to retain some level of credibility inre the veracity of the Swiftvet allegations.

They've been dragged, many kicking and screaming, to the uncomfortable realization that cardboard Swiftboats don't float...at least not very long.

Yep, just a bunch of sophists

Writing a bunch of sophisms.

Full of sophistry.

Bingo on board.

One more thing...

I'm not sure the article addreses this because I just skimmed through it, but there is another major inaccuracy in applying the swift-boat label to the Giuliani situation. The SBVFT wer found to have ties to the GOP and the Bush-Cheney campaign. So far, at least, we know of no connection between the firefighters association and any other candidate's campaign, Democrat or Republican.

If a Democrat or left-leaning organization were behind this, wouldn't they wait until Rudy (who is polling well) wins the Republican nomination? The Swift-boat Vets waited until a few months before the Nov. election, after Kerry had been nominated. For all we know, the firefighters association could have ties to a Republican campaign. If so, the media might more appropriately compare this campaign to George W. Bush's use of push-polling to derail fellow Republican John McCain in 2000.

Either way, this had better signal the end of Giuliani's campaign. Without 9/11, he has nothing. Personally, I'm kind of tired of seeing people use 9/11 to, I don't know, make millions in the security business or try to advance their own careers.

To Nick307, interesting point, but ...

...the Slow Boaters actually started up during the primaries, when it looked like Kerry would be the nominee, not after he became the nominee.

But it is true they got most of their money from GOP sources a lot closer to the election.

Fair enough, but..

I was thinking of the Swift Boat Vets' televsion ads, which began in August 2004. And when you think about public opinion and MSM impact of the group, the TV ads are where the Swift Boaters gained mainstream notoriety. I followed the 2004 race pretty closely, and I had never heard of the Swift Boat Vets until the TV ads were released.

True

...goes back to the GOP money starting to pour in, I guess.

Factcheck

Factcheck.org has noted the problems with the firefighters ad.

[link to www.factcheck.org]

Rudy

Infomative. And although it does state that the firefighters exaggerated on some of the points, it also shows where they were correct. My conclusion: Rudy isn't Satan, but he's certainly no hero.

Not exactly damning

I agree that the factcheck article pokes some holes in the IAFF video, but rather than exposing outright falsehoods, it shines light on some of the exaggerations and misleadinginformation contained in the video.

Clearly Rudy is no 9/11 hero. A steward is not a hero, and conservatives like to believe that a Democrat would have somehow handled 9/11 worse than Giuliani. What did Rudy really do that any of us wouldn't have done?

I do take exception to the claim that the IAFF video is a partisan attack ad. As the worlds largest firefighters union, I would expect the majority of their contributions to go to democratic candidates. Democrats generally fight for unions, while Republicans oppose them. That doesn't exactly seem unusually partisan, especially since the video would better serve Democrats if released after Rudy had won the nomination.

Lying

What you have to remember is that these lying liers are so consumed in their lie, they can only perceive it to be truth. That is what is propelling this fantasy comparison of "Swift Boats", yet it is one lowly example. That it offers a symbolic parallel or symmetry is reason enough for them, not the details. Whether or not it relies on reality for its veracity is entirely secondary, almost as in a game where the line of attack works until your enemy resists no longer or overcomes you with their own line of attack. What truth minded indivuals, be they of whatever political persuasion, ought to remember is that, like life itself, truth will untimately prevail. Their petty games of deceipt need only be plaid like the harp it is; we ought to be twisting the twisters in their heads, as if to laugh them into their senses and humanity. I profer this approach as one interested in the mutual evolution of people, not the exclusionary kind.

I also recommend that anyone reading this read a book by Daniel Quinn called "Ishmael".