Once again

MMFA tries to stifle free speech.

Part of the dealing with the pain of a family is asking why these things happen.

The guy gave his opinion, right or wrong. Of course you wouldn't gripe about it if he went on a progressive rant about the war in Iraq or condoms in schools or universal healthcare.

Really?

Because I missed the part where MMFA called for anyone to be jailed or muzzled. Responding to what someone says is as much a part of free speech as the original statement. For some strange reason conservatives think THEIR free speech rights means no one gets to point out what we think is WRONG with what they say. Here is a clue. Free speech doesnt mean you get the podium all to yourself and we have an obligation to shut up and take your nonsense seriously

Beautifully put

What a great post. The right wing gets indignant if we point out the ignorance or intolerance of one of their own. But no one ever suggested they not speak. Sure we would like some balance maybe 1 liberal for every 50 conservative viewpoints as opposed to the 1 to a 1000 it seems like now.

You may be right...

but it has to make you wonder what Bill Maher was preparing to say if this lunatic was allowed to express these antediluvian views. There is no doubt that Maher would have addressed religion in a way that would have offended many Americans. But if you're going to call your segment "Free Speech," that should mean free speech for everyone. You don't think the opinions of this Columbine dad were offensive to many Americans? You think non-fundamentalist parents of school shooting victims appreciate this man hijacking their children's memory to advance some fundamentalist agenda?

Sure, this may be free speech, but (much like the president's attempt to turn the anniversary of 9/11 into a Dem-bashing orgy) this man's use of his free speech is offensive, disrespectful and highly inappropriate. I feel for all victims of school violence who sit on the sidelines while this man tries to harvest their pain and suffering into a liberal witch-hunt. This man is absolutely dispicable, as is CBS for determining the line to be drawn when discussing religion extends much further on the right than it does on the left.

You ARE right

Good post.

Has anyone been keeping a left/right log of "commentators" on this Couric program? Anecdotally it seems to me to be about 70% right wing.

CBS evening news now ranked 3rd

Couric and the rest at CBS and the current slant of the Free Speech segment are now in 3rd place among the national network evening news!!!

SAVE DEMOCRACY, VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT!

Free Speech!!! An Amish village is left in carnage, and the idea was to provide the opportunity for a Christian Fundamentalist Anti-Abortionist to conflate the tragedy to the loss of Christian Values, Anti-Public School, Anti-Abortion, and a moral decay of America as a result of a mythical Anti-God movement in public schools.

Who's idea was it to give the largest public forum to be used this way??

He didn't make any arguements why a good church going Christian would call his wife to say he loved her, dropped his own children to the school bus, and proceed with organized, precise intent to go to a single room school house to torment little girls, kill them, and commit suicide.

He conflated that the lack of Christian values lead to the tragedy. The good Christian, church going devoted father, husband, and employee. Living in the warm embrace of a GOOD CHRISTIAN ENVIROMENT!

Another point ignored...

Another point conveniently ignored by this father is that the murderer in the Amish school wrote about hating God because of the death of the killer's young daughter in 1997.

This killer obviously believed in God (how else could he have hated him) and it apparently played a part in his mental decline.

But that's probably because we teach Evolution in schools.

the problem with rohrbaugh's logic

is that a lot of these school shootings are being committed by adults, not students. as for the great values when god and prayer were in our schools, a lot of times it would be the white students in nice new schools while black children were reading cast off textbooks. and every once in awhile their god fearing parents would lynch someone. not in bad ol liberal new york, but in the heart of the bible belt.

My Opinion

Against Abortion? Don't Have One!

Free Speech

Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion. The point MMFA is trying to make is that the point of view expressed by the Columbine father is the ONLY viewpoint you ever hear in the media. The free-speech segment on the CBS Evening News has yet to feature a Democrat or any progressive viewpoint snce it's inception. They allow that guy, Rush and others . Their balance is views from moderately conservative to extreme right wing conservative? If they have Rushwhere is the balance?David Brock, or Al Franken, Stephanie Miller,Thom Hartmann, Randi Rhodes.They bumped Bill Maher.The pont is the conservative view is all that gets on the air.

got a chip, do ye?

I'm curious if yr self-editor ever shows itself when you feel the need to react in such a peurile manner. yr views are transparent, insipid, and such a horrible bore. go defend something, like yr football team. yeah rah!

Good one, MMFA

I watched this last night. MMFA is right -- regardless of how you feel about abortion or evolution, Couric said the speaker would talk to "the pain of the families" who are victims of school shootings. Instead, Rohrbough just engaged in a polemic.

What's the problem here?

This person is expressing an opinion. An opinion most of the readers of this site (including me) disagree with. But so what? Should this guy not express his opinion? Should he not be given a platform on a national newscast? What is Media Matters saying here?

Personally, I wish MM would stick with clear examples of media bias (there are plenty of them), and not worry so much when someone expresses a conservative opinion on the news.

see solon's reply above

pretty much covers it

Here's the problem

The problem is that CBS gave this guy a platform. There's no dispute over whether he has the right to express his opinion. Of course his does. The problem (the Media Matters is rightly pointing out) is that CBS is lowering the standards of news in order to boost ratings. It's naive to think they didn't anticipate what this guy would say.

yes this person is expressing his opinion.

yes he has the right to express his (insane, illogical and deluded) opinion.

But, NO, of course he shouldn't be allwoed to express it on a nationally syndicated news show. Whatever happened to journalism. For a news item like this we should be discussing the pressing need for tougher gun control, the need to not glorify violenece in the media, the need to not have our leaders setting bad moral examples for everyone by killing a hundred and fifty thousand iunnocent people in a war of choice that was sold to the public under false pretenses. If this guy were to get any air time at all (questionable anyway) it should be for a news item titled "The moral decay of America".

Remember

These are the same nutjobs who still believe in WMD's in Iraq or that Iraq was involved in 9-11. Logic will never work with them. This planet will be a burnt ember before they ever admit they are destroying it

I can't beat up on this guy but

You have wonder if Ann Coulter will go after him like she did the Jersey Girls. Sure thing Bill O'Riely will be interviewing him to push his traditional values.

I can...

This guy's an idiot. Losing a family member does not make him an expert on anything. Yeah, he has a right to express his opinion, but we have a right to point out his stupidity.

He's just parroting the absurd Religious Right talking points that they have used for decades to suck money out of gullible dipsticks like him.

And bush cut....

The funding for anti-violence programs from our schools. Could that have something to do with it. Mr. Rohrbough, I mourn your loss just as the rest of America did, but you blame teaching evolution? I just do not get the connection and I do not think many other people do either. There is no doubt that schools needs to offer a class on peace and non-violence, as one of my LIBERAL teachers proposed. You should have used this opportunity to heal an entire nation, not go on a political rant.

An opinion

Where is the misinformation here? It is an opinion, and he is entitled to it. Those that disagree, can disagree, there is no stopping that.

And regardless of one's opinion on abortion, who can really argue that it minimizes and diminishes life? Abortion may be legal, and it should continue to be so; but to act as though it's impact is only a positive one concerning pro-choice, and dismiss it's negative effects on society, is naive.

see solon's reply above

since the guy never address the pain of the parents, and just used his supposed celebrity status to deliver an off-point and un-informed opinion he has invited scrutiny.

Disagree.

"And regardless of one's opinion on abortion, who can really argue that it minimizes and diminishes life?" --tommy

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I don't know that anyone has ever shown a credible correlation between people who believe in a woman's right to choose and so-called "minimiz[ing] life". This is just a Republican old wives tale as far as I am concerned.

Capital punishment and/or senseless warmongering would be much better examples of minimizing life (although I am for capital punishment), but it hits a little too close to home with many conservatives apparently.

In fact, we know the apparent opposite has happened. People who ostensibly claim to believe in the "sanctity of life" have ironically murdered abortion doctors. Showing a blatant minimization of life in the process.

open

You're being disingenuous. For you to use a murderer of abortion doctors as some relevance to anything other than a hideous criminal act, is unfair. An extreme example is no way to make a credible point. No sane person condones murder, in any case.

As for your other arguments regarding wars and capital punishment, the case could be made that these also diminish life in some capacity - but they are also very different and, in my opinion, not analagous to this situation.

Capital punishment, which I am opposed to, is viewed as just punishment for severe crimes. And wars, irrespective of the Iraq mess, is sometimes necessary to combat evil and protect freedom.

Abortion on demand, especially when used as a method of birth control, absolutely lowers the bar on the respect for human life.

And this guy WASNT being disengeuous

Linking the teaching of evolution and abortion to some whackjob killing children in a school? I also think your arguments about abortion as opposed to Capital punishment and wars is not logical. Most people who support a womans right to choose are not ecstatic about abortion they just dont want to impose the restriction of a womans choice. I assume that is your take. Thus I dont see that it DOES any more to diminish respect for life than Capital punishment which is basically the same. I, for instance, aknowlege the state DOES have this right though I absolutly oppose it. OR fighting wars of aggression which many see Iraq as. IF this were a war of absolute necessity OR morally unambiguous as WW2 the point might hold. It doesnt look that way to me OR to Openmind, therefore I see it as a very apt analogy

Solon

With reference to those that diminish life, I am speaking more to those that personally choose to abort their child, rather than those who do not want them criminilized and thrown in jail -which would be my position.

In this instance, not all, would you say that a couple who recklessly engages in sex, gets pregnant, and then decides to abort rather than adopt, are treating the life they are discarding in a diminishing way?

Opinions

"In this instance, not all, would you say that a couple who recklessly engages in sex, gets pregnant, and then decides to abort rather than adopt, are treating the life they are discarding in a diminishing way?" --Tommy

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You are only asking for our personal opinions. You are not demonstrating how any of this has to do with the murderers who kill schoolchildren. What does abortion have to do with that? Have the school murderers aborted children thoughtlessly? Does anyone know?

If so, then you may have a point about the murderers specifically, but I don't see it as a condemnation of society at-large as was part of the apparent point of this guy.

If not, then the point is absolutely worthless.

I also believe that this guy thinks the mere choice is part of the problem. Apparently if we decide not to allow people to make the choice about abortion (as well as not teaching evolution and bringing back school prayer), there will be less murders. It is just speculation. Nothing to support it other than bias or baseless presumption.

open

The guy is making the case about the diminishing of life across the board, and how may various factors contribute to that. I do not necessarily agree with him on that, I was simply addressing his point about abortion; where in the case I mentioned, life is minimized, as far as I'm concerned.

Look, people love to blame much of what they don't like about our society for many related and unrelated ills - some fairly, some unfairly. I don't know whether this is a fair correlation or not, but this man's views are his opinion, as he sees it.

Tommy

"The guy is making the case about the diminishing of life across the board, and how may various factors contribute to that." --Tommy

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Don't get me wrong. I am not entirely opposed to that general point of view. However, the example factors he said were contributing to diminshing of life were skewed towards misguided right-wing propaganda (evolution in schools, abortion, expelling God from school, etc.) instead of some more obvious and better examples of contributing factors like warmongering/romanticism of violence, capital punishment, conditions of the poor, drug use, violent media and allegations/defense of prisoner torture/coercion by our government.

open

On most of your examples, we agree.

Solon

Thus I dont see that it DOES any more to diminish respect for life than Capital punishment which is basically the same.

I have had this discussion with people who are anti-abortion but pro-capital punishment. Their position is usually that fetuses are "innocent" - that is, have not had the opporunity to make moral choices - while the criminals are not. To them, killing a criminal is justified by the choices the criminal made. I admit it makes a kind of logical sense, although I personally do not find it persuasive.

Yes it makes a logical sense

IF you accept that the moment an egg is fertalized it is an innocent HUMAN BEING. This point has not been demonstrated as a fact.

Solon

Right - you have to believe a fetus is a full-fledged human being to buy that argument, which I don't.

Absolutely?

"Abortion on demand, especially when used as a method of birth control, absolutely lowers the bar on the respect for human life." --tommy

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

That is your opinion. Others may feel differently. Who is to say who is right? Just because someone views a fetus differently than you do doesn't mean they are wrong about it. It is a philosophical question after all.

Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't see these people who are having "abortions on demand" going out and murdering people at a higher rate than the rest of the population. If there is a study indicating that, I would be interested in it.

Would it be safe to conclude that these killers have all had girlfriends/wives/mothers that have had abortions from your logic? If it isn't true, then wouldn't the theory be a bad one?

Is the problem that we even have a choice on the matter? Do you think the murder rate would drop if abortion was outlawed?

The problem I have is that I don't believe many people have abortions that casually and I don't believe they enjoy or are even indifferent to that decision when it is made. Every woman I have talked to about their abortion views it as a failure on their part or otherwise regretably. I don't see a minimization of life at all.

Of course there may be that .0001% of the people out there that proves me wrong.

open

We disagree then; but if you think those that use abortion as a method of birth control, in this particular instance which was where my specific argument is based on, is just a matter of opinion, regarding the diminishing of life, well...........?

We disagree.

Tommy

You obviously have a belief about which stage in the gestational process that the products of conception becomes a human being, and I believe you believe it's when Mr. Sperm meets Ms. Egg, but seriously there are good decent life respecting people who disagree with you on that. So you can't simply dismiss proponents of choice as somehow having no respect for human life when there is a basic disagreement as to what constitutes a human being. I don’t believe that a zygote is a human being; it’s the first precursor in the steps of human being and other animal life creation. First term abortions should be safe, legal and to use the now clichéd rare. Abortion is a medical procedure and there are some risks associated with any medical procedure so we both agree that preventing unwanted pregnancy is always best.

Opinion

Abortion on demand, especially when used as a method of birth control, absolutely lowers the bar on the respect for human life.

Opinion. Not fact.

Right Wing Bias is the media

I genuinely feel for this mans loss and for his pain, but what does this have to do with the shootings in Pennsylvania? Firstly the Amish school is a religious school and I’m sure creationism is taught and they pray everyday. How did that protect these children?

Secondly religion and prayer are no guarantee as to the moral fiber of men. History is littered with religious wars and atrocities committed by supposedly pious men. Priests and preachers alike have fallen victim to moral decay.

You could argue that any thing that destroys life, be it hunting, abortion, pollution, war etc., minimizes it. The point is that the bias in this gentleman’s interview has a right twist to it. Why not put Cindy Sheehan on and have here talk about how war minimizes life, or someone to talk about gun control. MMFA was correct in pointing a problem with CBS’s broadcast of this mans preaching’s.

Lastly, survival of the fittest is an absolute of nature so, is protecting ones young. Both are an integral part of evolution. The slaughter of these poor babies is not the result of our moral decay caused by teaching evolution or not praying it school. It is caused by our failure to protect our young.

I remember...

that hypocritical mass murderer Clinton going on tv to tell us all that violence is not the answer to life's problems right after Columbine occurred....while he was bombing the crap out of Serbia at the exact same time. I'm waiting for that bastard Bush to do the same.

To the ontrary

And regardless of one's opinion on abortion, who can really argue that it minimizes and diminishes life?

To the contrary, the assertion, made by those opposed to abortion, that a microscopic ganglia of cells, just after conception, is the same thing as a human being reduces the value of life to as low a point as possible (unless one wants to go around making equally absurd contentions regarding respect for the rights of atoms).

When speaking, always think twice.

If you are ventilating your opinions throughout the world, you should have the decency and common sense of trying to avoid plain lies. You can't just rape and abuse Darwin's evolution theory like that. You can't just rape and abuse the left philosophy like that. You can't just lie with a straight face and think there are NO MORAL CONSEQUENCES to it.

MMFA Wrong

Letterman attacked O'Reilly for his opinion on Cindy Sheehan a women who lost a son. MMFA was critical of OReilly for this but she has a right to her views and opinions

I see similarities here, this guy lost a child, doesnt he have a RIGHT to say what he wants.

I am sick of us trying to silence people for opinions we dont believe in.

This is America, not Nazi Germany.

O’Reilly: “Okay, so let's stop with the lying and the this and the that and the undermining and let's get him. That is putting us all in danger. So our philosophy is we call it as we see it. Sometimes you agree, sometimes you don't. Robust debate is good. But we believe that the United States, particularly the military, are doing a noble thing, a noble thing. The soldiers and Marines are noble. They're not terrorists. And when people call them that, like Cindy Sheehan called the insurgents 'freedom fighters,’ we don't like that. It is a vitally important time in American history. And we should all take it very seriously. Be very careful with what we say.”

Letterman: “Well, and you should be very careful with what you say also.” [audience applause]

O’Reilly: “Give me an example.”

Letterman: “How can you possibly take exception with the motivation and the position of someone like Cindy Sheehan?”

O’Reilly: “Because I think she’s run by far-left elements in this country. I feel bad for the woman.”

Letterman: “Have you lost family members in armed conflict?”

O’Reilly: “No, I have not.”

Letterman: “Well, then you can hardly speak for her, can you?” [applause]

O’Reilly: “I’m not speaking for her. Let me ask you this question.”

Letterman, referring back to O’Reilly’s examples of a war on Christmas: “Let’s go back to your little red and green stories.”

O’Reilly: “This is important, this is important. Cindy Sheehan lost a son, a professional soldier in Iraq, correct? She has a right to grieve any way she wants, she has a right to say whatever she wants. When she says to the public that the insurgents and terrorists are 'freedom fighters,’ how do you think, David Letterman, that makes people who lost loved ones, by these people blowing the Hell out of them, how do you think they feel, waht about their feelings, sir?”

Letterman: “What about, why are we there in the first place? [applause] The President himself, less than a month ago said we are there because of a mistake made in intelligence. Well, whose intelligence? It was just somebody just get off a bus and handed it to him?”

Bill O’Reilly: “No.”

Letterman: “No, it was the intelligence gathered by his administration.”

O’Reilly: “By the CIA.”

Letterman: “Yeah, so why are we there in the first place? I agree to you, with you that we have to support the troops. They are there, they are the best and the brightest of this country. [audience applause] There’s no doubt about that. And I also agree that now we’re in it it’s going to take a long, long time. People who expect it’s going to be solved and wrapped up in a couple of years, unrealistic, it’s not going to happen. However, however, that does not eliminate the legitimate speculation and concern and questioning of ‘Why the Hell are we there to begin with?’”

O’Reilly: “If you want to question that, and then revamp an intelligence agency that’s obviously flawed, the CIA, okay. But remember, MI-6 in Britain said the same thing. Putin’s people in Russia said the same thing, and so did Mubarak’s intelligence agency in Egypt.”

Letterman: “Well then that makes it all right?”

O’Reilly: “No it doesn’t make it right.”

Letterman: “That intelligence agencies across the board makes it alright that we’re there?”

O’Reilly: “It doesn’t make it right.”

Letterman: “See, I’m very concerned about people like yourself who don’t have nothing but endless sympathy for a woman like Cindy Sheehan. Honest to Christ.” [audience applause]

O’Reilly: “No, I’m sorry.”

Letterman: “Honest to Christ.”

Last I knew...

Last time I checked, nobody tried to silence this guy, so indeed, your comparisons to Nazi Germany are unfounded my friend. In fact, this guy got a prime spot on CBS primetime news to make his opinions known. Nobody tried to silence him, and actually, they gave him a soapbox to preach from.

As others have said, in a free speech country, we are allowed to actually disagree with what this guy is saying, if we were to "shut up" as I believe you are gesticulating towards, then again, we'd be no better than Nazi Germany, but alas, we can say what we want, and we do have free speech. Nobody told this guy to shut up, but it is good for discussion to disagree with him as to why he's wrong about what he's spouting off about.

And IF

MMFA had called on the guy to be jailed or attacked for his opinion you would have a point. They didnt. You dont.

There Is A Huge Difference, Dave

Cindy Sheehan was speaking out against an ongoing war that she thought to be morally wrong. Her son was killed in that same war. She had a connection to that which she was speaking against.

Brian Rohrbough lost his son at Columbine He was commenting about a similar killing in PA. He spoke out against abortion and evolution, which had nothing to do with either the Columbine or PA shootings. He was only giving his opinion, but his opinion is just reheated fundamentalist ramblings with absolutely no connection to the shootings.

If CBS gives an evolutionist or abortion advocate equal time the right would be a lot angrier than we are.

Cindy Sheehan

Gives her opinions on Hugo Chavez and Hurricane Katrina yet lost no family members to Katrina or is not an authority on Chavez. I see similaries betwee Sheehan and this gentleman.

Yeah, but

Sheehan didn't link Katrina or Chavez to her son's death, because there is no link.

This guy is linking abortion and the teaching of evolution to his son's death, although there's no link there either. I think that's what Worrier meant.

Exactly

Dave is doing a lot of swinging. Dave is doing a lot of whiffing.

Dave you are not correct

Cindy Sheehan was speaking out against an ongoing war that she thought to be morally wrong, she is critical of an administration that has killed her son in this illegal war.

Brian Rohrbough lost his son at Columbine He was commenting about a similar killing in PA. However he started to speak out against abortion and evolution, which had nothing to do with either shootings.

CBS is wrong for allowing this type of propaganda hate.

I Tried

To use logic to link Cindy's anti-war stance to the loss of her son. I also tried to show how illogical this mans point was, since evolution and abortion played no part in his son's death.

The Theory of Evolution has been taught in schools since at least the 1920's. Are we to blame all that's happened since then on being taught Darwin's theory in our schools? Abortion has been practiced throughout human history. Are we to blame it for everything that's befallen mankind? Why not blame rain too?

Exactly

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Classic logical fallacy

abortion's history

Until a few generations ago, abortion was not illegal.

the difference between Sheehan and this gentleman

are that Sheehan did not appear on a national forum claiming that she was going to talk about the pain of losing a son in a war and THEN go off on a tangent about Katrina or Hugo Chavez. Get it now??

Evolution...

IMO drawing a cause and effect relationship between mass murder and the teaching of evolution constitutes misinformation. I understand that the purpose of MMFA is to point out right wing misinformation. You and Mr. Rohrbough are entitled to your right wing opinions, regardless how goofy they may be, but misinformation is misinformation... unless you and Mr. Rohrbough are prepared to demonstrate how the teaching of evolution results in mass murder.

The above post...

...was addressed Mr. Leatherhemet.

opinion versus fact

This father said that abortions have diminished the value of children. That's his opinion, but the facts do not back him up. There is no evidence that the right for women to have the right to control their body until the fetus is viable (a non-viable fetus should not be able to control a woman's body contrary to the woman's wishes) has affected the value we place on born children. It is in the deformed brains of people who cannot grasp the difference between non-viable fetuses and children who have left the womb and survived that any confusion lies. I know, and most people know, that there's a difference between a fetus and a child. Not agreeing that a woman should be forced to give birth to every fetus does not mean that I do not respect or treasure every child that is born! His opinion is not based upon fact, and so Media Matters pointed that out.

In a similar way, there is no evidence that teaching evolution in the schools has caused anyone to have any less respect for human life.

This father said "For over two generations, the public school system has taught in a moral vacuum, expelling God from the school and from the government, replacing him with evolution, where the strong kill the weak without moral consequences. And life has no inherent value."

Public schools have recognized, with the help of the US Supreme Court, that no one has the right to force others to believe any single religious tenet, and therefore school-led instruction into any particular religion has been outlawed. That is a good thing. That is the US Constitution being honored! Believing in evolution, and teaching evolution, does not demand that there is no moral consequence to killing anyone. Fetuses are not people. Killing people is still illegal, and no abortion activist that I know supports the killing of people. Supporting the right for a live adult woman to have control over her own body, and denying a non-viable fetus the right to have control over that adult woman's body is never equivalent to condoning the taking of a human being's (someone who has been born) life.

This guy is wrong about the facts. It is not that Media Matters is against anyone presenting an opinion. His facts are wrong.

Sue

Any couple that enters into a sexual relationship and does not properly protect themselves against pregnancy, and as a result decide to abort the pregnancy, minimizes and diminishes the aborted fetus, and ultimately the child that was never born.

Simple opinion.

That is your opinion based on your own situation with your own premise.

Other people may not operate on the same premise you do on this subject.

In other words, you view it as diminishing life, but others may not. Both opinions are valid, but you won't know for absolutely sure until you meet you makers (or not).

The point that the dad was making is that aborting a fetus somehow makes it easier to kill people in a school house. There is no logic to support that. Did the Columbine shooters have abortions? How do you even seek to compare such things on a scientific basis?

It appears to be a statement that just brings together certain Republican points of view without the benefit of having any logic to back it up whatsoever.

It appears much more likely that if you combine crazy people with gun-philia, you end up with really bad situations.

open

It is absolutely my opinion and not a fact. We are all entitled to them.

As for making everything a "Republican" reference, I have no clue why you included that in your comments. It is no way relevant to any point I was making. If it was just some gratuituos slap, there was no reason.

You're right. Sorry.

The Republican remark was not really aimed at you. I should have said "conservative" or more aptly "conservative Christian". I apologize for not making that clear above.

Linking abortion to "diminishing life" is a statement not supported by any fact at this point, so I regard it as a convenient belief often stated as a truism by conservatives / conservative Christians and their sympathizers.

I don't hold truisms in nearly the same regard as facts. I can only hope others recognize the difference as well.

This is nonsense

They did not value the fetus over the rights of the human being who was carrying that fetus.

They valued the born human being over the unborn fetus.

They did not more highly value the fetus.

The value placed upon that fetus has no relationship to the value placed upon a human being!

Too bad, you are wrong twice - in your dogged persistance in calling me Sue, when my name is Eleanor, and in your miserable attempt to prove that because a fetus could become a human being, it's equivalent to a human being, becuase it's not.

That's just bizarre

Talk about unintended irony. Probably the last place anyone is "expelling God from the school" is in an Amish school. I'd doubt an Amish school even teaches evolution at all. What this man had to say has absolutely nothing to do with the events in Lancaster County.

My thoughts exactly....

I don't understand the point about evolution, abortion, lack of morals, etc., when the attack happened at an AMISH school.

Do you really think abortion, lack of "morals", etc., are a big problem at Amish schools??? How the hell does any of that have to do with this attack at all?

For all the people saying the man was just giving his opinion, that's true, but if Katie Couric used her "Free Speech" segment to instead have an ultra liberal on who went on and on about how those evil conservatives are to blame because they want to do away with gun laws, and how the attack was all because the Republican Party is waging war in places like Iraq and not respecting human life, the right would be up in arms.

You certainly wouldn't see them saying, "Oh, this liberal was just giving his opinion. I don't see what the problem is."

Maybe?

Maybe this guy forgot to review the crime statistics that have shown the violent crime dropping over the years. Maybe things are just reported more, and garner more coverage since we now have a lot more media right now?

I send my condoleneces for his loss, but he's just wrong to equate the cause of his son's death with evolution, abortion, and the moral decay of American society. Why doesn't he blame the kids who shot his son instead?

Why public school...?

If Mr. Rohrbough has had such a problem with public school agenda for over two generations then why did he send his son to public school?

what the F*CK???

How does someone connect losing a son in a violent tragedy to the teaching of evolution and the practice of abortion? I know some of you (OK, three of you) believe that MMFA is wrong to flag this, but CBS has a real responsibility to weed out propaganda and misinformation - even if it's from a grieving father. Mr. Rohrbough has every right to express his opinions, but this B.S. is not real free speech...this is taking an opportunity to push an agenda...the same thing Cindy Sheehan was blamed for. And you just know if she was chosen to do a segment the right-wing would be blasting CBS!

Did the Columbine shooters

have abortions?

Did the Columbine shooters have abortions?

No, but apparently they were taught evolution. How else can you explain their murderous ways?

That must have been it

They really took to heart the "Life Has No Inherent Value" chapter of The Origin of Species.

No, they had Prozac

The one factor linked to most of the children-shooting-up-schools events has been the perps were mainly Prozac'd up. That wonderful anti-depressant that causes suicidal tendencies in children.

Another victory for Big Pharma's stock prices.

We have met the enemy...

As others have noted, the subjects of the attack were Amish, a most God-fearing people. While ironic, there is a logical progression to Rohrbough's argument that is troubling. If the problem wasn't the faithful Amish, then the problem must be with others who are not faithful.

Rohrbough's solution seems to be one of indoctrination. But which concept of God? I'm guessing not Muslim. How about Jewish? Christian? Hindu? (I'll forego a dicsussion of the obvious irony of the Buddhists.)

What should be done with respect to those who refuse conversion? Won't they continue to be a problem? Should we jail, expel or kill them? Isn't that exactly the attitude of bin Ladin and others we fear and criticize?

Free speech

Strictly speaking, this guy is entitled to his opinion and to express it however he sees fit. By the same token, MMFA (or anyone else for that matter) is free to point out the misinformation (if any) that he spews.

Neither evolution nor abortion played any role whatsoever in either the Columbine shooting or this most recent incident. From the diary of one of the Columbine shooters:

"We want to be different, we want to be strange and we don't want jocks or other people putting (us) down.... We're going to punish you."

As yet, no real motive has been discovered for the Amish schoolhouse shooting, except some nebulous reference to revenge for some event 20 years ago. What role the Amish may have played is purely speculation, but frankly I suspect it has to do with the ease with which a shooter could enter one of their schools.

That this gentleman - and I fully sympathize with his pain - should take the opportunity to commisserate, reassure, and share the pain with the families of those killed to attack evolution and abortion is just plain stupid, and does nothing to help. The Amish do not teach evolution in their schools. Abortion, as far as I know, is non-existent in Amish communities and it certainly isn't encouraged. In other words, what he said has absolutely no bearing on what happened in any way, shape, or form.

Then again, if we were to take a look at the various causes of school violence among the general population, I feel very confident in stating that evolution and abortion would be considered by the perpetrators as having absolutely ZERO influence on their decisions. And, in spite of what anybody says, it's their opinion that's relevant.

In short, this guy is certainly free to say whatever he likes - and be completely off-topic and wrong.

Free Speech

I deeply sympathize with Mr. Rohrbough's loss and I cannot imagine the pain he has undergone. I further fully support his right to be heard and CBS has every right to present his opinion to its viewers.

Is this conservative misinformation? Not strictly speaking, though as noted, Couric's introduction seemed calculated to present Rohrbough solely as a bereaved parent "who knows all too well the pain the families in Lancaster County are feeling tonight" and not as a partisan polemicist. If CBS really bumped their scheduled guest to address this unfolding news story, then (at least in the first news cycle) it seems more appropriate to present a speaker who indeed is speaking to the actual incident and not someone whose apparent purpose was to impart highly partisan spin. Couric's intro was strictly non-partisan while the segment she introduced was anything but.

It seems to me that CBS is using these school shootings to introduce a highly partisan interpretation that blames liberalism (in-so-far as evolution and abortion are perceived as liberal), when one could just as easily blame "conservative" causes. Abortion and the teaching of evolution have about as much to do with this shooting as does the dehumanization of prisoners in Abu Ghraib (that is to say, little or nothing). If one wanted a more solid contributing factor, one could easily point to this culture's gun culture which made, at least, the means so easily available to the shooter.

Overall I agree with you EXCEPT

I disagree that this is NOT conservative media misinformation. The linking of tragedies like this to liberal political positions is a long time rightwing talking point. Pushing it in this venue I think is EXACTLY conservative medial misinformation

"This country is in a moral freefall"...

I AGREE with Brian Rohrbough's above statement.

We may have differing OPINIONS as to WHY we believe this country appears to be suffering from an increasing lack of morals and should be able to freely express them.

That's all Mr. Rohrbough was doing on a segment titled FREE SPEECH.

But...

...what did his opinion have to do with the events in PA?

Hey Clams,

He obviously feels the disintegrating moral fabric of this country is a FACTOR in these tragic school shootings. He is giving HIS opinion on what has led to that moral decay. I'm SURE each of us, IF we believe that "This country is in a moral freefall" have our own reasons for WHY we think that way.

He was given a forum to express his.

Which was just

Co-incidentally I expect, a longtime rightwing talking point. OK. fine he expressed himself. WE are expressing our disagreement. Where is the problem?

Solon my old cyber-space friend,

I don't believe I wrote ANYWHERE that you could NOT express your opinion. I was SIMPLY explaining what I felt Mr. Rohrbough was doing during his Free Speech segment.

PLEASE say whatever you'd like...I know you will EVEN without MY permission LOL ;-)

BTW my Mom & Aunt will be in Arizona in a few days [that's where you live-right?] Please make sure the weathers nice--ok? :-)

True I didnt see that in your post

Others however are, when they are saying hey he has free speech then arguing that his rights were being violated by us saying why we think he was A) wrong, and B) spreading conservative misinformation. So I was just chiming in

And I'm not just disagreeing with him...

...I'm objecting to the fact that the tragedy in PA is being exploited in order to voice those views. Couric clearly presented this segment as being on the topic of the PA murders. She even made a point of saying that their scheduled segment was being preempted in order to bring this guy on to talk about it. For me, THIS is the reason why this freeSpeech is so outrageous.

But...

But he was brought on to the segment to talk about the loss of family, and loved ones, and instead, railed against what he perceives is the downfall of America, abortion and evolution (I could name a whole bunch of other stuff, but will digress for right now).

Nobody said he couldn't say what he said. And everyone on here railing about how his "free speech" was impinged should look again possibly. It wasn't. He wasn't. And as long as we adhere to the Constitution of the United States (which because of the current administration, we're more and more not adhering to it), we'll all have free speech to say what we want.

But remember, if you say something bad about W, you're for the terrorists and could disappear to Gitmo.

moral freefall????

you're kidding right? this segment had nothing to do with moral freefall (whatever the hell that is), it was about a school shooting tragedy in case you missed it.

also, sure this guy has a RIGHT to his opinion (however strange, illogical and deluded), but what it is doing on a nationally syndicated news outlet is beyond me. This isn't newsworthy. You don't see crazy people too often on Canadian media, because they report facts, not insane partisan polemics that have nothing to do with anything.

god hasn't left the schools

not if you have indoctrinated (sorry can't find a better word) your kids with your values. I asked my daughter last nite if she leaves God at home when she goes to school and she looked me right in the eye and said, "Of course not." She also stated that this kind of thing doesn't happen because we don't have school prayer, it's because these kind of people have something wrong with their heads. Pretty profound, I think for a 13 year old.

Anyway, this guy is entitled to his opinion, but I think he's wrong and CBS should have had someone else on to counterbalance his opinion.

You are correct.

This imecile is just repeating what he's heard for years from the American Ayatollahs like James Dobson, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. They would have us believe that crimes like these happen because this Milk Truck driver wasn't forced to pray in public school, or that he believed in evolution, or that he didn't see a copy of the Ten Commandments on the wall everyday.

It's bullsh*t, of course, but it helps them fleece money out of their gullible congregations.

How do they explain religious fanatics who drown their children?

Feel it kicking

I knew my baby was alive when I touched my wife's belly and felt her kicking. I'm sure she was alive even before she had the strength to kick with force. My wife NEVER referred to our baby as a fetus. No mother I know has EVER referred to her baby as a fetus. It's a BABY, a child of GOD. Ontogeny never recaputulates phylogeny just as the sculpting of a marble statue never recapitulates the metamorphosis of limestone into marble. Some things are created with value, including those poor, innocent girls that were mercilessly gunned down by the Devil's Attache. I pray that the girls and their families get an extra measure of peace from God.

I agree...

...in principle. All human life has value, including babies. As a father, I'm in full agreement with you. However, the salient point here is that referring to abortion or evolution in the context of the latest school shooting - or any school shooting - is ludicrous. It's made even moreso by the fact that this latest incident occurred in an Amish schoolhouse.

While No marble statue becomes a limestone block

That doesnt mean every block of limestone becomes a marble statue. AND not every fertalized egg becomes a baby. Ever hear of a molar pregnancy? I am sure you wife referred to her fetus as a baby. When she was thinking of it do you suppose she was envisioning a mass of 100 cells? A blob the size of a grain of rice? Or was she thinking of what it would look like when it was fully formed and delivered? The argument has emotional value but no logical value.

Ontogeny and Phylogeny

"I knew my baby was alive when I touched my wife's belly and felt her kicking. I'm sure she was alive even before she had the strength to kick with force. My wife NEVER referred to our baby as a fetus..."

And what does this have to do with this tragic shooting?

"...a child of GOD. Ontogeny never recaputulates phylogeny just as the sculpting of a marble statue never recapitulates the metamorphosis of limestone into marble."

Colorful if addled metaphor, but your understanding of evolutionary theory is clearly misguided. Haeckel's Recapitulation Theory, while clearly disproved in its original form, is still partially applicable, as in in the theory of evolutionary developmental biology.

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

[link to en.wikipedia.org]

In any case the long ago failure of Recapitulation Theory in no way refutes Neo-Darwinism, and what the heck does this have to do with a school shooting anyway?

Don’t Blame Darwin … Blame Your Republican President

To blame the moral collapse (if there is one) of this country on evolution is blaming Nature for crimes made by Man. Blaming abortion for actions taken by individuals, who have never been affected or touched by abortion, is ignornance but not arrogance.

I would blame the Federal government that under the Bush Administration which has cut and severely reduced funding to schools to stop intruders and terrorist attacks like this from occuring. I would blame the Republican congress for cutting care for mentally handicapped and indivuals in need from cheap and cost effective treatments for the mentally ill (Didn’t another menatlly ill individual just neter the Capitol building the other week). I would blame the Republican Congress that has taken 1000,000 police officers off the streets in communities throughout our nation and replaced them with gangs and thugs. I would blame a Republican Administration and Congress that fails to respond to the needs of citizens in need after a major hurricane. And an Administration and its officers that continually lie in the face of the truth and perpetuate a state of lawlessness not only in Iraq but here at home as well. A Republican Administration that prides itself on being cozy with the gun lobby and supporting laws that loosen regulations on purchasing and using guns in this country. While we have an Administration more concerned with prayer in schools, gay marriage bans and ill conceived foreign wars based on lies you wonder where the moral failure comes from.

Hmm

If we've been able to successfully keep God out of the classrooms, as these folks insist, why can't we keep human beings with guns out of the classrooms?

very true...

god is supposed to be alot more powerful than a crazy person. i thought god was supposed to be everywhere at all times...how legislation could spiritually remove him from classrooms is, ummm, difficult?

conservative talking points are genius...

becasue they make people start talking about issues that are not important at all. everyone here is now debating the morality of abortion instead of the need for gun-control, funding for mentally ill etc. it's awesome that everyone can waste time discussing irrelevant issues instead of extremely important ones. aren't there some wars going on (and I don't mean culture wars)? forget about that..."same-sex marriage, same-sex marriage, homosexual agenda, it's adam and eve not adam and steve, god hates gay people" etc et al. come on people, stop taking the bait.

The Commentator was out of touch

He blamed school shootings on declining standards in public schools, godlessness, and abortion. HELLO? The Amish shootings took place in a PRIVATE school, a RELIGIOUS school, of a sect that ABHORS abortion. The elephant in the room: ALL SCHOOL SHOOTINGS INVOLVE (DUH) GUNS! When will the NRA must admit that it's "guns for everyone, on questions asked" policies will take a toll among the innocent? Of course, their response will be that arming all the teachers and all the students will magically solve the problem; not, as any sane person can see, create a host of new problems.

Disinformation

This may come too late and too far down in the discussion to be seen by many, but I don't see this so much as misinformation as disinformation.

Neither CBS nor Rohrbough (nor anyone else) had any idea of the motives of Roberts, the shooter, when they rushed Rohrbrough before camera to give his opinion.

This was not some disaffected youth suddenly going on a killing spree. Roberts has been described as a "loving father and husband," maybe even a registered Republican, whose reasons for the attack and killing are still not known.

Yet CBS was able to find and get in front of the cameras this still grieving father who must place the blame for his loss somewhere.

And since it was done on the CBS Evening News, his opinion gets the patina of fact because it is within the context of a news program and the viewer believes that anyone selected for such exposure must be a someone with the facts behind him and who has thought out the topic fully.

This was not the case. Rohrbough trotted out his opinion and fixed the facts around it.

I am also leery of the speed with which CBS got him on the air. Something tells me that Rohrbough is sincere, but that he is on the list of speakers that the right wing keeps at the top of their database under "school killgs" when they want someone with emotional weight to reinforce their talking points.

I'd have expected the same from Falwell!!!

Is that the best Katie Colic can do?? CBS, send her back to being a Romper Room MC!

I don't completely disagree with this father. The schools ARE in a moral vacuum, one in which teachers can be fired for stating the obvious, that our Fuhrer....err, president, is waging an illegal war in which countless thousands are being killed and maimed; for acknowledging that the vice president's company, the one from which he claims independence but from which he makes tens of millions every year, is overcharging American taxpayers to a degree that would make a Marxist blush; for challenging a GOP "conservative" who shouts out moral values is trying to get it on with 16 year olds, and "conservative" radio pundits BLAME IT ON THE LIBERAL DEMOCRATS!

That has NOTHING to do with evolution.

Morality doesn't exist in a vacuum--i.e., that which inhabits the space between this father's ears.

Another American psycho

Seems every time some mentally ill loner decides to top himself these days, he has to go out with a bang...and take some others with him. Only way for them to finally get on TV, I guess. And we all know there's nothing more important in America than getting on TV.

I'm not far from Lancaster County. All the women at work are scared for their kids in school right now. Just takes one more copycat to go postal as a way to get his fifteen minutes of life's fame.

For some far-right crackpot to go on tv and whine about abortion and evolution over the bodies of dead children...it's disgusting. They should have talked to some clinical psychologists perhaps, maybe some people advocating more mental health treatment programs. But some ranting fundie? That's low...very low.

There has been a change in "moral climate" over the

past several decades. When I was in High School, in the fall, we often carried our guns to school in our vehicles, but we never had the impulse to go to the vehicle and go "postal." There is a lot of violence in the culture, from the coverage of the war to video games, but I believe a lot of problems can be traced to the lack of communication and interaction on the family level. From Latch key kids to adults who can take offfense at the least little thing, it appears we are more apt to act out our fantasies regarding "revenge" than we are to shrug off whatever it is that upsets us and go forward with life.

The picket fence is gone

The reason America is losing the dream is not because of abortion or removing religion from schools. It is quite simple to me. It's because our government can't seem to put a wounded dog down and represent the people. I'm tired of the abortion debate, a right given to women long ago. If you don't believe in abortion, then don't have one. Americans continue to lose ground when it comes to our families because we cannot live on one income alone. Our government continues to cater to the rich, who control all aspects of our lives. One of the richest families in my town own all of the gas stations. I buy groceries at a store where stockholder needs come first. Every Congressman I know either came from money, has money, or has a vested interest in some corporation. Everything I buy comes from China, a scary thought if we ever had to close our borders. Our health system is broke, yet HMO's are making record profits. I can't afford to by an American car. Wealthy people are wasting our natural resources by building gigantic homes. Congress has lost it, our families are losing it, and our picket fences are falling down. Americans have fallen victim to the rich and a government that is controlled by the rich. How much healthcare would campaign money fund? Campaign money, you know who benefits from it? The networks, the newspapers, the rich. What has Congress done lately other than voting themselves in a pay raise? How much money is Katie Couric worth anyway? Doesn't she put her shoes on the same as everyone else? The rich are destroying the morals in this country. The rich donate to charity to try and make themselves look good. I can see the forest through the trees and it's not going to get any better until Congress becomes a true representation of the American people. Greed has destroyed the morals and values in this country.

you 'll speak, bravely enough, but foolishly

Free speech, okey. But free lies? I'm sorry, I can't give you that. Dawson's evolution theory didn't simply say that the strong kill the weak, it said that the ones most fit to their environment would outlast the ones least fit to their environment. Secondly, who gets the USA in this moral freefall? The left?! I think not, most probably the right, capitalist, fruit-of-the-colonization. Simply admitting that you're NOT SURE there is A SINGLE God doesn't mean that you deny the existence of moral consequences. Socrates already thought us everything we should know on morality, but the rightwinged nuts would love to burn any books on Socrates and replace them with a bible of lies and deceit. Socrates would tell us today that wars are not to be won with a military, he'd tell us all the problems we have with our schools, and he wouldn't be mentioning our teaching them the evolution theory nor our teaching them to ALWAYS KEEP AN EYE OF SUSPICION TOWARDS ANY 'RELIGION'!

If Media Matters would get off its goddamned high horse....

Everyone is wrong except you. Couric, as little use as I have for that fluffball, put on a man who had known a pain you or I will never experience. Thank the God we really have banished from progressive discourse that our children weren't butchered by some psycho on a guilt trip. He is more than entitled to his opinion--he probably is right.

Ken, calm down already

If Media Matters would get off its goddamned high horse....

Wow. If you're going to come down on the side of Mr. Rohrbough, and presumably of his views regarding morality, then first of all tone down your language. It makes 'your side' look bad.

Everyone is wrong except you.

MMFA has never said that, of course. They are always open to correction.

Couric, as little use as I have for that fluffball, put on a man who had known a pain you or I will never experience.

(Mindreader alert!) Oh no? How do you know we will never experience such a thing? I have a child in the public schools, and how do I know some crazed lunatic with much-too-easy access to a gun won't break into her school and do his worst? And if, God forbid, it ever did happen, I wouldn't blame it on evolution, or on abortion, I'd blame it on the crazed lunatic with much-too-easy access to a gun. See how we differ?

Thank the God

Huh?

we really have banished from progressive discourse that our children weren't butchered by some psycho on a guilt trip.

They weren't? I thought that the opinion from "progressive discourse" was that that's exactly what happened. It's not the progressives who are looking for tired scapegoats like